Wollemi Pine Tree review: Possibly a scam 44

I have a similar experience. I ordered two plants on March 26, 2010 with a guarantee that they would be delivered in 2-3 weeks. I e-mailed info@ancientpine.com at the end of three weeks with no response. At the end of six weeks I filed complaints with the San Diego BBB, American Express and the Federal Trade Commission. I received an e-mail from Josh Schneider that their phones were down, they had a computer failure, but they would have all plants delivered in two weeks from their Florida nursery. I responded that I had already filed with AMEX and that they would have to deal with the credit card company. Nevertheless, two plants were delivered about two weeks later. The plants had poorly developed roots, but i released payment through AMEX anyway. Within a week the first plant died. The second plant is now dying. I have never received direct responses to any of my e-mails from the time I sent my first one three weeks following my order. Neither did I receive responses from several phone calls to [protected] (cell phone - Josh Schneider) or [protected] (Cell phone - Vanessa Denning), the reps in San diego. If you search the business address (1782 Titus Street, San Diego, CA 92110) and select the street view you will find only a small residential home.

I also e-miled Van Berkel Distributors Pty Ltd http://vanberkel.com.au, the Australian distributer that owns the Wollemi pine logo that is exhibited on the Wollemi Pine U.S. site tied to San Diego, to no avail. I will contact AMEX again on Tuesday following the July 4th weekend to complain about a possible fraud.

Jim Wilson

My experience with ancientpine.com is identical to the these. I ordered a Wollemi Pine in March 2010 and have yet to receive it. I have tried emailing as well as telephoning them and have received absolutely no response from them with the exception of a "broadcast" email from Josh Schneider saying the company had had personnel issues as well as shipping and inventory issues, but that they expected to fulfill all orders within 2 weeks from that time which was June I think. Because my credit card had been charged, I contacted the CC company hoping they could help me get a refund. They were unable to contact anyone at ancientpine.com either and thus, said they could not help. So, as it stands now, I am out about $100. If anyone has any ideas for me to either get my money back or on how to contact these scam artists, I'd certainly welcome them!
Teresa Olcott

When I contacted American Express they tried to contact Josh Schneider, he did not respond. Because American Express did not get a response they refunded my money. I'm am not absolutely certain but i think credit card companies are obligated by federal law to do that. You might want to inquire about that.

Jim Wilson

Jim, thank you for responding. After I read your first posting containing names and phone numbers for people at ancientpine.com, I attempted to contact them. I did not have those names or phone numbers prior to reading your posting. Thank you soooo much for providing that extremely helpful information, because, even though I was never able to speak to a person [there's a shock, huh?:)], I believe my repeated frustrated messages finally prompted some action. I was finally contacted by them via email and they have FINALLY issued a refund to me via my credit card. So . . . I finally got my money back . . . . yippiiee! But, it appears I'll never be able to get a wollemi pine unless I travel to Australia:( It's interesting what you said about the federal law requiring the cc company to refund money if they are unable to contact someone as well. I will remember that in case of future internet mishaps . . . gawd forbid :) Again, thank you! Teresa Olcott

Is this the Josh Schneider of "Ancient Pines"? http://cultivaris.com/about.html

I can't say for sure if it is him or not having never seen a picture of the one associated with Ancient Pines. But, it seems very likely given the similarity in business types and the Josh on this website has a contact address identical to the one associated with Ancient Pines (1782 Titus Street in San Diego). How interesting! How ever did you find this website? Teresa Olcott

I Googled "Josh Schneider San Diego" and several related things came up. My major interest is in when these plants (wollemi pine) are going to become available legitimately. Maybe the key is to chase down the Florida nursery that was alluded to in previous blanket e-mails. Unfortunately the San Diego Ancientpine is the only thing available in the USA. Have you visited the http://vanberkel.com.au site and inquired? I have e-mailed them several times with no response.

I suspect this newspaper article is about the nursery that is actually supplying the plants to ancient pines http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100412/COLUMNIST/4121030?p=1&tc=pg Sadly he says that he can't give the things away now. He says that he is supplying small dealers. I will try to contact him and see who is getting them. The Beds and Borders wholesale nursery owner is Josh Chandler.

WOW! I admire your stick-to-it-ive-ness :) It seems to me if we could get the word out about Beds and Borders to other customers who have been disappointed with Ancient Pines, he would sell his stock. Maybe a link on this website, or see if the Australian suppliers would refer US customers to Beds and Borders. I suspect part of the reason he "can't give them away" is because of the poor business practices perpetrated by Ancient Pine. I'm anxious to hear who or which small dealers are getting them. Or, I wonder, if he'd sell directly to us if we tell him our sob story :) I too will try to contact him.

Well, I found Beds and Borders- Beds-Retail, 8855 Erie Rd, Parrish, FL [protected]. The listed telephone number, [protected] is not a working number. The address fits the newspaper article. The listed manager is Jason Rohrvach. No e-mail address. The elusive Wollemi Pine is still elusive.

Hi there! After our last "conversation" I did some googling also. I think Beds and Borders may have moved to NY or is associated with a nursery there. They have a blog and in the latest entry they say something about 'the truck arrived from Florida-good job Josh' (the manager/owner in the newspaper article was Josh Chandler). Their blog address is http://outofthepot.blogspot.com/, their web address is http://www.bedsandborders.com, and their email contact is contact@bedsandborders.com. I also found the other nursery mentioned in the article (Mitch Armstrong Nursery of Palmetto) and found some on-line contact info. They too have a blog (http://heyplantman.blogspot.com), and on it they list a contact of MARKETANNIE@AOL.COM. On Monday I sent emails to both of them, but have not received any response yet. I haven't tried calling phone numbers yet that are listed. If and when I hear something, I'll let you know :)

Terrific. you have outdone me! Great job! .thanks.

You probably got the same response that I received from Susan at Beds and Borders; while their Florida nursery did have Woillemi Pines, they no longer carry them. The search for the elusive wollemi pine continues...

Hello,
I had THE same experience with ancientpine.com as well. I ordered on 3/26/10. The two weeks came and went. I went from super excited to concerned to extremely frustrated that i could not get any reply via email or phone. After a while i disputed the charge on my cc bill, as well as left a bad review somewhere that recommended ancientpine (on a site called "weeviews.com"). I was convinced it was a scam. Soon after that, on 5/13/10, i got the apologetic broadcast email from Josh Schneider promising the tree would arrive soon. It did arrive and i was upgraded from a $75 size to the $125 size. I softened my weeview, and canceled the disputed charge. I figured, "hm, cool. well, maybe this person just had a nervous breakdown, or some very personal crisis that he felt would only be rectified by making crazy excuses where he is the victim, hoping to invoke sympathy from my anger and helplessness." (his perfect storm of communication troubles reminded me of my alcoholic ex-girlfriend behavior.) Regardless, i got the tree and was happy. i blamed myself for "Wally"'s death 6 months later. so hear I am one year later, looking into trying it again. I just googled "wollemi scam" to see if more weeviews followed mine and was delighted to find the thread above. crap. doesn't look so easy. Is this guy really the only show in town?! ... This might be wishful thinking... but does it mean anything that all 3 of our horrible transactions happened in March of 2010? Could ancientpine be better now? Could Josh's "staffing changes and computer and communication glitches as well as some operational challenges" be resolved now? Or is this as dumb as dating that alcoholic ex-girlfriend the second time? (cause that was just plain old fashioned dumb.)

We all ordered on the same day: 3/26/10. Now, that doesn't justify their "screw customer service" philosophy that lasted at least a month... but it does give me hope. three complaints on the internet that i could find... and we all ordered on the same day. That would be a huge coincidence. Shouldn't there be hundreds or even 10's of complaints from all different days, weeks, months, and years? Man! just don't know if wanna risk the heartache from ole' Josh again. I'm guessing the root systems'll all be weak because anything for American markets will have been propagated.

Hello. You do make an interesting point that there should be more complaints found somewhere on the internet. But in my search to find other retailers/sources for the Wollemi Pine, I think something would have popped up. Also, 6 or 7 months back I contacted the ancient pine folks in Australia and the UK in the hopes I could order from them. Their response was that, unfortunately they can not (will not?) ship to the US because of US Ag restrictions etc. etc. Their response also indicated to me that I was not the first person to contact them with our collective stories of being "ill-served" by their US counterparts. So, I'm guessing/thinking/wondering if maybe all the others just gave up and chalked it up to a bad internet transaction? Or maybe we three are just nutty enough to still hold on to the dream of nurturing a "Wally" :) Or a combo of the two? Your analogy of dating the alcoholic ex-girlfriend made me laugh . . . thanks for that! Anyway, this morning I checked the ancientpine.com website and I saw this notation: "We are currently out of stock of all our tree and book products. Please check back from time to time if you are interested in ordering a Wollemi Pine in the future and continue to use our website as a resource for your Wollemi Pine Care and General information. Thank you." So . . . I don't know? This gives me a new idea of possibly attempting to contact Josh through his new endeavor and asking him if there is ever the possibility of ancientpine.com ever reviving. But, then again, I realize I'm falling back in with that alcoholic girlfriend again :) . . . .

There is no excuse for such poor customer service. That is exactly how those scams must work, where eventually some investigative news guy catches the scam artist getting into his truck, and of course the scammer's always the angriest person involved (because he got caught). Like i said, his "broadcast email" just seemed too over the top to be real, it reeked of BS! Who takes money and is completely unavailable for 6 weeks?! Wouldn't a normal person be try to communicate with customers right away, as in before they get angry, like "within 2 weeks". (I enjoyed the photo/link that JLW put up, awesome work.) I did get my tree, and was upgraded, but not without making noise for a while. Thus I wonder if he is just that type of scam artist, counting on people to not care that much. I wonder, was ancient pine only in business for a short time (like march-june 2010 or something). I still get the feeling there are definitely others, at least from March of 2010 that let it go. We are a selection of the squeeky wheels who not only saw it through but also wanted to warn others. That the guy used his real name, combined with the fact that at least 2 of us ordered on the same day even, tells me bad timing had more to do with it than anything else. I imagine it was bad business skills rather than a maliscious act.

I was in Sydney for work in 2009. they sold wollemi pines in the botanical garden gift shop for like $6 to $40, depending on size. I knew then I couldn't take any back to Brooklyn but it's a frustrating thought right now. I remember learning about Wollemi years ago and National Geographic were selling propagated "seedlings" for $100. I'm sorry I don't know my facts on this, haven't done my homework yet, but i thought i remember there being other US options last year, and that ancientpine seemed awesome to me, in my naivity, because it was $20 cheaper. I will also look into it. and share if i find anything good.

Not sure if this organization is involved with the Sand diego connection but I recognize a name: http://cultivaris.com/about.html. Our group of dissatisfied is growing. I think I'll start a blog...

ahaha! i love that you found that! (sharp-witted and blunt? sounds like a polite code for a bad word.) i don't mean to cultivate negative feelings. Well you'd have at least two followers of that blog. So far i got as far as National Geographic (who no longer carries them either) giving me the email of their supplier, info@wollemipine.com i'm afraid it will be the same path you two already searched. i do appreciate your research and sharing. Thanks. if i have progress i'll let you all know. really glad to come across this thread.

I also found this link: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=12596172963. It's not very active but hopefully someone will post a source eventually that is not in Canada; it's tough getting stuff across the border these days - sounds like a country and western song.

Here is another interesting option. A blurb on the Wollemi pine UK website http://www.wollemipine.co.uk/acatalog/Company_Info.html states: "Kernock Park Plants has been appointed to grow and market the Wollemi Pine in the United Kingdom by Wollemi Australia Pty Ltd. Wollemi Australia is a joint venture between the Queensland Government Department of Primary Industries (Forestry) and Birkdale Nursery." The Ancient Pine website doesn't have this info but they are licensed by the same institution. The Queensland Government Department of Primary Industries does have a customer complaint form (pdf format). If you feel that you have been duped in your good faith efforts to secure a Wollemi Pine through an official franchise in the US, then this might be another way to vent your displeasure with the system. If the seller uses the Wollemi Australia logo then they must be licensed by Wollemi Australia.

The Queensland Government Department of Primary Industries does have a customer complaint form site is: http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/documents/Corporate/CustomerComplaintForm.pdf. Forgot to mention that.

A bit hasty maybe, but I did it: http://elusivewollemipine.blogspot.com/

I have a new contact, incase you haven't run across it. marketannie@aol.com said that they have several large Wollemi pines that are too large to ship but they are growing new ones from cuttings and will contact me when they are ready.

Response from Market Annie: problem, already have you on file and hopefully can be in touch about this in the next month.
Annie Sprague
Mitch Armstrong Nursery
marketannie@aol.com

Hey there! I finally just took a look at the blog. Good work! And I'm so glad Annie responded to you since she did not respond to me. Great news that they're growing from cuttings. YIPPIIEE! Maybe the elusive wollemi pine will not be so elusive very soon :) PS I signed up to be a follower of the blog. Again . . . thanks for your persistence :)

Thank you Tracy. I alerted Annie that I am keeping all of you posted who are checking in. Thanks for following my blog too. I hope this next episode of chasing these plants is interesting in a positive way so I can blog it; something more than sent money, got plants, end of story.

Indeed, thanks so much jlw for all your work! Incredible! I also checked out the links and your blog. i will definitely become a follower of it. great research! wow! i'll also check in with Annie in a month. i'm so glad i stumbled across this thread.

According to Aussie Boy in his 2007 post http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/57012/, Wollemi North America (San diego) patented the Name "Wollemi" in the US supposedly to prevent the sale of the plant by anyone else.

Very interesting! He also says "There are no "exclusive" rights to this plant nor is it "patented" nor is there any restriction on propagation." So maybe this patent really isn't a patent . . . just some supposed legal jargon to scare off possible competition? And, it's also interesting that he says "All in all it will be worth waiting for some decent plant stock to be imported which will happen from Asia in a couple of years with the propagation programs going on there and the price will drop to a reasonable level." That was in 2007. I wonder if this asian connection was/is our boy, Josh's, new/current adventure? I'll have to go back and look at that one website found a while back regarding Josh and what he's doing now to see if I can sleuth it out. In the meantime, my husband has a friend visiting from New Zealand later this week. I intend to ask him what he knows about Wollemis and if he has any hints about us ordering from there possibly, or if he might be so kind as to act our buyer. If he is, would any of you be interested? Ahh, the chase continues . . . .

Good Idea. I registered on Dave's Garden. Tried to find an e-mail for Aussieboy. He almost sounded like he was advertising. Haven't heard from MarketAnnie yet; still waiting.

His comment was that patenting "Wollemi" was an attempt. so maybe it was a failed attempt.

I filled out the complaint form at http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/documents/Corporate/CustomerComplaintForm.pdf. Among other things i complained that the plant is essentially unavailable in the United States because of the apparent lock their Wollemi US partner has on distribution and because of the inability of their partner to deliver the plant or for that matter a healthy plant. Maybe if enough people complain they will pay attention.

I just downloaded the form and will fill it out. I suspect their response will be something to the effect 'it's not our problem. it's the usda which impedes export of the wollemi'. I did ask our kiwi visitor about the possibility of him sending one or more to me. Unfortunately, his response was something akin to what I just wrote. While he would love to, he said the paperwork involved which is required by the USDA is phenomenal. He is familiar with this as he works in horticulture (he's a viticulturist for a vineyard which has vineyards in the US as well as Mexico). So . . . I'm thinking we should be complaining to WollemiPine.com and request they re-establish a reputable partner in the US . . . or ask if they are doing so? Their contact info is: info@wollemipine.com. I'll give it a whirl. In the meantime, I received an encouraging email from Market Annie saying her seedlings are coming along and maybe we could expect them to be healthy enough for shipping soon. Seems too good to be true after all this time . . . :)

Check out this BBB rating for Ancient pine in San Diego. I believe this is our boy Josh. http://www.bbb.org/san-diego/business-reviews/tree-service/wollemi-pine-north-america-in-san-diego-ca-171997014/

Very interesting! Don't see how it could be any body else! I haven't received any response yet from my complaint form to the Australian government. Have you heard any thing? And, I'm still awaiting to hear more from Market Annie. I think she said she thought her seedlings would be ready around now. I guess I'll send her a message asking for an update.

No, I did not get a response; however, Wollemi Australia Pty Ltd. is a joint venture between the Queensland Government Department of Primary Industries (Forestry) and Birkdale Nursery so the Queensland Government Department of Primary Industries should have a vested interest and the partnership owns the Wollemi logo. I think that they should be interested in how their franchises do business. One complaint might be expected but two or more suggest a problem.

Update from Market Annie is below. Not good news, but not bad either . . . Bless her for her fortitude :)
"HI Tracy, well, sorry to say, the Wollemi's continue to challenge us. All the cuttings I put in did not last, and I am down to 2 decent 4 ft. trees to try and get more cuttings off of. But interestingly, just last week, I had some email conversation with botanist over in Australia and they have given me suggestions for trying the cuttings in a different manner. Seems that they do better propagating in a sand more so than a soil mixture so going to definitely try that. The one negative, is that they are known for taking almost 5 months to get some rootage on them..ugh! But I am not giving up yet, and I am also trying to find a source for seeds and see if I can get those going. Sorry I don't have better news, this plant seems to be a huge challenge to everyone and it's amazing it has survived from the prehistoric days when it is so hard to propagate !"

Did anyone see this post? http://txtriffidranch.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/poached-orchids-and-vaporware-wollemi-pines/ They indicates that "the one authorized [U.S.] breeder shut down all sales two years ago" and linked to this webpage: http://www.ancientpine.com/servlet/StoreFront. That is particularly interesting, given the times that we ordered ours. It may explain our difficulties.

Market Annie said she took a hit in Florida with the heat; lost some large plants and none of their new ones survived. Destiny, that's what it is... Destiny.