Bear Country Kennels review: Bad dog breeder 42

I think they have over 50 litters a year. And they are trying very hard to avoid using Bear Country Kennels and just call themselves English Springer Spaniels now. It is a puppy mill selling puppies online in bulk. It is owned by Deanna Lamphier who is a lying snake saying anything to sell you a dog. She also claims to be a dog groomer and isn't.

They have recently given a bunch of their dogs to another woman in Frenchtown who is continuing to breed them despite the compaints and genetic health issues. The best way to avoid them is to demand to see pedigrees and avoid anything with bear country in it.

I suspect also that they are registering litters falsely. They have a "Blue Roan" Springer, which is NOT a color Springers come in. However, it IS a color that English Cockers come in. I would be HIGHLY suspect that they lied to American Kennel Club about the parentage of their "roan" Springer.
Our Springer Rescue group has had MULTIPLE complaints about this breeder.
Buyer Beware!

Note: Deanna Lamphier is now using the kennel name Wildflower. They are mixing Clumbers with Springers and have also added English Toy Spaniels to their puppy milling operation. Should you buy a spaniel from this kennel, and have any doubts of its purebred lineage (and I would just based on what they are mixing for profit, then breeding mixed breed dogs back to purebred dogs), it's very important to contact the AKC as they can demand DNA tests from the entire litter.

We just recentlly bought a dog from Deanna. He came to us with a severe pot belly and horrible dry flaky skin. I called her the same day and she told me her son over fed the puppies and that his skin problem would go away. He landed himself in the ER vet, because he was lethargic, wouldn't eat or drink, and was running a temp. The ER vet gave us some antibiotics, but by Tue. he still wasn't coming around. I took him to our vet and they did a stomach X ray and the walls of his stomach and intestines were severely inflamed. They had to keep him and run him on a IV. He is home now, but I'm still alittle skeptical of his future health.
Let me say that Deanna's website looked legit and so did all her credentials. PLEASE DO NOT BUY FROM HER, LETS WORK TOGETHER TO GET HER SHUT DOWN!

We bought a puppy from Deanna and Jim Lamphier that grew to have severely stunted and deformed front legs. Our vet said it was genetic and we had two choices, put it to sleep or do a surgery that would be well over $5000. We opted to put it to sleep. Buyer beware indeed!

I have a 10 yr old bear country spaniel. she has been a wonderful companion to me, and aside from mild allergies and the onsite of usual age issues, she's been a healthy dog. She's my baby girl and perfect in every way. Sadly, though, she is not the only experience I have had with Bear Country, and it seems she was an exception, more than a rule. I spent 2 months working in a veterinary clinic in Missoula, MT. In that very brief time, I still saw several recently purchased/rescued puppies from the operation. She has also advertised "rare colorings" in her puppies, which are not the sign of responsible breedings. The case that sticks with me is the one of the girl who brought a puppy in with digestive issues. She told us the puppy was a bear country puppy. She told us how she got the puppy home, and realized quickly that the puppy was completely blind. She said she called the breeder, who offered a refund in exchange for the puppy or a different puppy. She was told her blind puppy would be destroyed. Totally unconscionable.

Deanna Doyra (Lamphier) ran off with another guy after leaving her dogs and puppies (and kids) behind for extended periods of time. Eventually her husband called Missoula Animal Control and had a large group of them removed so they could be rehomed and properly cared for. Apparently there were dead dogs on the premises. Even he says she should never be allowed to own a dog again. Some ended up in the care of ESRA springer Rescue service. Not lies. You can verify it for yourself. She is currently living with an excon in Cascade, near Great Falls, and still breeding springers under false pretenses, and with no genetic health testing of any kind.

After receiving my puppy a year in a half ago he had full grown worms in his poo and his belly was swollen and he also had an ear infection. I took him to the vet and took care of what needed to be done to get him back to good health. He has been an amazing dog and the love of my life until about 6 months ago. He used to be very loving and I could hug him and play with him with no problems but now he has turned aggressive we I hug him. Then out of nowhere he started to have major seizure. At least once a week for a month now. I try to call her to talk to her on 3 or 4 occasions left he several messages with no response. I know she could have thought that I wanted a new puppy, but that wasn't the case. All I wanted was information about cashes health history so maybe I could fix his problems. So much for my 2 year health agreement if something happens I know she won't hold up her end. This is our poor love and what he has to go through. Warning don't watch around children. http://youtu.be/4O_bCQq4qKQ

HOGDOG is the breeder trying to save their but go look at the profile

HOGDOG DeAnna Doyra is clearly delusional, deranged and off her bipolar meds. What she can't seem to figure out, is that her own (ex) family is giving away her dirty little secrets. :D

HOGDOG DeAnna Doyra is clearly delusional, deranged and off her bipolar meds. What she can't seem to figure out, is that it is her own (ex) family giving away her dirty little puppy mill secrets. :D

The complaints from the people who have gotten dogs from Deanna/Bear Country and had problems with them are speaking the truth. I met Deanna 5 years ago when I purchased two Springers and a Clumber/Springer Hybrid. In 2009, we bought a Clumber Spaniel from her for $1700. When he was 11 weeks old, our vet diagnosed him with a severe heart murmur. Knowing that he would be put down if we returned him, we kept him. When he was 10 months old, he was diagnosed with bilateral patellar luxation – his knee caps popped out. Surgery would have cost around $21, 000. We had to put him down when he was 17 months because he could no longer walk. Our Hybrid developed some sort of rage and killed a smaller dog in our family. Now our 6 year old Springer female is suffering from congenital heart failure – another result of bad breeding. Our vet told us that our “rare color” Roan “puppy” is probably part Cocker since roan is dominant color in English Cockers. She advised us to have him DNA tested and, if he is part cocker, to file a complaint with AKC. I am familiar with Angela, Hell Fire Kennels, and know that she is NOT a puppy mill. She breeds selectively and only once/twice per year. The posts from Hogdog are prprobably from Deanna or her significant other to dissuade people from believing the complaints about her. I have received many emails from Deanna in the past years and know that spelling and punctuation can only be from her. Please do not believe the lies and anger coming from Hogdog. Deanna is a very angry woman and has NEVER stood by her health guarantees or accepted the fact that she is a puppy mill.

We have known about a puppy mill of Spaniels near us for around 10 years. Missoula Animal Control has been called multiple times by neighbors but nothing was ever done. The dogs barked continually and we knew they were not taken care of as there were so many of which we didn't even know how many. This is to inform you that we heard that Deanna, the owner of the facility has moved some of her breeders to Great Falls MT to start over there. She needs to be shut down. It makes me sick that Animal Control did nothing to stop this sooner. I am so disappointed in them as we had complained about the barking along with another neighbor. There were gunshots late at night many times. A neighbor who lived by them complained several times and we sign a petition, but other neighbors were they're friends and didn't want to stop them. There were also rumors that fish and game was up this spring and found out they were poaching animals and baiting bear to feed the dogs. I even heard that they were using bows and arrows to kill animals so shots would not be heard. It makes me sick as I think she had her kids involved also. Now she just moves on to a new man to support her and a different place. She pulled the wool over many peoples eyes but it makes me sick for the animals and her kids. How are they ever going to turn out okay? I have never complained to them other than sign the petition about the dogs, but they all but laughed in my face. Another neighbor, who is the owner of Bassett Rescue is also very upset with this. I had told her years ago of my suspicions' but she also was fooled and now feels awful and wants to make sure Deanna is shut down. It looks like the old dog grooming business in Missoula is closed so I hope her sister is not able to breed also but don't know if they moved or what. If you find out anything more about the situation please let me know. I drove by there place yesterday and there are no dogs to be seen. I guess Jim is living there now. Thanks for putting this on the web to warn people. Let me know if there is anything I can do.

HOGDOG Deanna Doyra (Lamphier) ran a notorious springer spaniel and clumber spaniel puppy mill in Frenchtown for many years under the name of Bear Country, before it was finally shut down last fall as her personal life spiraled out of control. Over a hundred complaints were filed against her ranging from sick, wormy, giardia puppies to dogs dying from epilepsy, to crippled and completely blind puppies. Over the years many of her Bear Country dogs ended up in Springer Rescue and even more were destroyed because of very bad temperaments. If her puppy mill watchdog "stalkers" had anything to do with helping these dogs and keeping people from being ripped off by spreading the news, then salute them for doing a good deed for society!

If HOGDOG Deanna is bragging about only having a few dogs left it's because last and last fall Missoula Animal Control had a large group of her dogs removed after her husband came back from a work trip and found dogs living in horrible conditions, abandoned for extended periods of time. Many of them ended up in breed rescues and local shelters. She also dumped off her dogs as quickly as she could through various places, with other breeders and puppy mills. All I can think is, those poor dogs. They deserved better.

Currently, she lives in Cascade, Montana, and continues to breed springer spaniels and clumber/springer hybrids. Buyer beware. There is nothing ethical or honest about this dog breeder. Even if she only has 4 -6 dogs, she will find a way to make sure they are bred as much as possible, even twice a year, to other breeds, to crank out every last dime she can from them.

Hellfire is no puppy mill. They are a very reputable kennel and their high quality field bred puppies are selectively placed. I have known Angela for years, have seen her dogs work and they are always very well trained. She is a hard working professional woman, not a stay at home puppy breeder. It is very obvious that the juvenile, unstable mentality being incoherently displayed in this frivolous complaint/attack is done out of anger and extreme jealousy, not the other way around.

I agree with this complaint. I work at a shelter and deal with puppy milled and backyard bred dogs every day. As a heads up, Deanna is now using the website spanielhybrids.com to sell her mixed breeds. You have absolutely no idea what is even mixed into these dogs. Do yourself a favor, call an animal shelter and adopt a mixed breed. You'll get the same quality of dog for a fraction of the price and you won't have to deal with an angry, mentally unstable nut job.

Oops. I think HOGDOG Deanna's crazy comments backfired. :)

Deanna Doyra the owner of spanielhybrids.com, breeder of springers, clumbers and spaniel mutts is bat[censored] crazy. Even her own family says so and avoids her like the miserable plague on mankind she is.

PLEASE NOTE: there is a new post by someone calling himself/herself "hellfiresgunsdogs". I am sure that this is Deanna using another using name instead of "hogdog". I have contacted Angela M of "Hellfire Kennels" and she assured me she is NOT using this name. Deanna is a very sick woman. I have known her for 5 years and have been lied to the entire time. She is a desperate woman and needs to be avoided at all costs. She is breeding hybrids out of a kennel in Cascade. For those of you posting on this page, you should know that there is another complaint page English Springer Spaniel - Puppy Mill which is a more current complaint page. If you have any complaints, you may want to post them on both complaints' pages.

This post is for Bear. She is our 6 year-old female Springer that we bought from Deanna. Our vet discovered that Bear has enlarged heart and is suffering from heart failure. It's a day to day thing and no one knows how long she has left. Each day with her is a blessing. But, I also hurt because it brings back memories of WInston, our crippled Clumber that we had to send to Bridge when he was 17 months old because he could no longer walk. I hurt for Dexter, our Springer-hybrid who killed our pound-puppy Elton in a savage attack and because of his aggressiveness, we had to let go too. I hurt for all of you who bought dogs from Deanna and for all the dogs who have suffered.

Angela (me), the owner of Hellfire Gun Dogs, doesn't have any problems posting under her own name. She also has a full time job, a happy home and family, and 10 great Springers that keep her so busy training for and competing in a multitude of AKC field and performance events, that she doesn't have time to pose as anybody other than herself. Thanks for the heads up oldchief. I couldn't agree with you more.

If anyone wishes to find out the truth about Deanna Lampier it is easy to do! She is and has been watched by ALL the English Springer Rescue Groups. This is VERY easy to find out. Just contact ESRA and ask anyone there about her and some of the SAD animals that have come in from her "kennel". She has been under the watch, from these groups, for several years. Do your homework!
If ANYONE knows about kennels that are producing LOTS of unhealthy animals, the rescue groups do! And trust me, this whacked out woman is known for her HORRIBLE conditions ACROSS THE UNITED STATES! Ask ANYONE who is a ESSFTA member (Engish Springer Spaniel Field Trial Association) and they can tell you LOTS about how horrible she is! She would NEVER be allowed to be a member because of her horrible breeding practices. She would NEVER become an AKC Breeder of Merit, because of her horrible, unethical breeding practices...and anyone with half a brain would RUN from her kennel! Check her out through reliable honest breeders. Everyone knows her and NO ONE admires her! Don't take just one persons word...ask EVERYONE! So easy to see what a lying delusional piece of work she is.

Hooray! It looks like complaintsboard has removed Deanna's posts. :D

I am heartbroken to hear that i have been fooled by deanna. i can't believe i bought my dog from a puppy mill it makes me very sad. my springer doesn't look like any other springer I've ever seen, he is a tri colored roan. he is too short and stocky to be a full springer, although he is aka registered as a full springer. he is almost two and has no health or temperament problems, but after reading all of these complaints i am fearful that the future of my dogs health is doomed. i really hope he is one of the lucky ones.

Buyer beware! Deanna Doyra Lamphier is still breeding spaniel puppies in Missoula Montana and selling them through her website spanielhybrids.com. She is crossbreeding clumber spaniels with springer spaniels and you have no idea what is mixed with what, how related these puppies are or what their lineage really is. Breeding dogs is her only source of income and she has bred her ### so many times it is dog abuse and should be illegal. Please do not support this kind of mutt making for profit!

I have been to Deanna Lamphiers place and bought a BEAUTIFUL puppy from her, She DOES NOT have a puppy mill and I cannot believe the lies that you people post! You ANGELA MONAGHAM ARE ONE EVIL PERSON, ALONG WITH YOUR FRIENDS THAT PUT UP THESE LIES! Just goes to show, dont believe everything you read on the internet, Especially from a liars like these people.

Deanna Lamphier has a Beautiful Place and beautiful dogs! I have been to her place, I have bought a dog from her, which is more than any of you could say I am sure. This is a perfect example of dont believe everything you read on the internet.Sounds like the only person that is disturbed and has a puppy mill on here is Angela Monaghan.
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If anyone wishes to find out the truth about Angela Monaghan is easy to do! She is and has been watched by ALL the English Springer Rescue Groups. This is VERY easy to find out. Just contact ESRA and ask anyone there about her and some of the SAD animals that have come in from her "kennel". She has been under the watch, from these groups, for several years. Do your homework!
If ANYONE knows about kennels that are producing LOTS of unhealthy animals, the rescue groups do! And trust me, this whacked out woman is known for her HORRIBLE conditions ACROSS THE UNITED STATES! Ask ANYONE who is a ESSFTA member (Engish Springer Spaniel Field Trial Association) and they can tell you LOTS about how horrible she is! She would NEVER be allowed to be a member because of her horrible breeding practices. She would NEVER become an AKC Breeder of Merit, because of her horrible, unethical breeding practices...and anyone with half a brain would RUN from her kennel! Check her out through reliable honest breeders. Everyone knows her and NO ONE admires her! Don't take just one persons word...ask EVERYONE! So easy to see what a lying delusional piece of work she is

Well hello there you lying snake Angela Monaghan! So how many of these fake posts are yours? Old chief you big mouth coward..love to meet you in person. Probably just Angela in drag anyhow. These posts actually made me laugh.. You all sure do get carried away w your lies. My place is open ANYTIME to ANYONE. Love to have you over Angela, can I come to your place? Deanna isnt mentally ill, but from reading your post's Angela its obvious you are! If she was handicapped Im sure you'd make fun of that too..and what exactly does Her kids have to do with Springers? I see that coward of an Ex husband (jim lamphier) and you talked. I see you like to throw my name and business into it. Ex con and druggie? Typical Angela Monaghan, , Lots of lies, little truth.

And I wonder why you drag me into this? And yes I am a convicted felon, the druggie part must be from when my son was killed and two of his friends in a car accident. And no there was no alcohol or drugs, (I'm sure that would be your next trash talking lie out of your mouth) But after he died I didn't handle it so well and used drugs to escape the pain. Did my time, went to treatment, and have been drug free for over 10 years. Thank you. But all your good at you lying snake is mixing a little truth w lots of lies. Deanna never lowered herself to post on here w your trash.. But now you have me. The smartest thing you could do is leave me alone. If you don't, you'll truly regret it. I'm not some little girl you can get off on terrorizing. Just to clarify: that's not a threat. I know where you live, maybe you'd like me to come down so you can say it to me personally? I'll give you my address too if you want? Cowards. Keep talking ### Angela, I'm not a spineless ### like Jim lamphier, I have all your ### spewing lies printed out and my Atty is loving it.lol

You Angela Monaghan are a liar w a puppy mill. line breeding or inbreeding? Funny how no one but you and me use our real names? ? More fictional characters you created? The lies on here are pretty way out there. Btw were doing well. Sold another beautiful puppy today. :)

This message is for anyone who is looking to purchase a Springer Spaniel and doesn't know who to trust. I know nothing about the kennel being complained about here, but I did have a negative experience with Angela Monagham (Hellfire Springers) about 4 years ago. It's possible she has a great kennel, but she is not a nice person. Before I purchased my Field Bred Springer I contacted many breeders around the country to ask them questions about Field Bred Springer Spaniels, which I had never owned. At this time I owned 2 wonderful tri-colored Bench Springers. I had also owned 2 Bench Springers when I was a teenager, so I have an affinity toward Springers. Every breeder was kind, gracious patient with me, except one - Angela. After Angela insulted me, by telling me that my two Bench Springers were "backyard bred" and that she would only sell her springers to "knowledgeable" people, I moved forward with a purchase elsewhere. The only reason I considered buying from Hellfire is because they are located about 8 hours away from where I live. For those serious about buying outstanding Field Bred Springer Spaniels I have two recommendations from my long search for a reputable breeder; Ten Bar Ranch (TBR) Springers and Pine Shadows Springers. I have visited both kennels personally and I can tell you that they both run a top notch kennel. I purchased my Springer from TBR in Lake Andes South Dakota and I sent my Springer to Pine Shadows for advanced gun dog training in Brainerd Minnesota. If you want to buy an outstanding Field Bred Springer, either one of these two kennels will make you very happy. From this complaint board you can gauge the dysfunction Angela seems to be associated with. Don't take a risk with Hellfire Kennels.

Words of advice to Jim Chinadle - Never trust a drug felon ranting like he's high and making threats of physical harm. That's my opinion.

Hey is this Deeanna Doyra or Deanna Lamphier lady (whatever) and Jim Chinadle guy (posting all the crazy stuff above) selling Clumber Spaniel / Springer Spaniel puppies as cuddlebugpuppies.com? We are looking for a purebred Clumber Spaniel and the only source I found through the Montana Puppy Finder is called Cuddlebug Puppies located in Missoula. We are not interested in mixed breeds and will go through the Clumber Spaniel breeder referral service on the AKC website, but since I found this thread I just thought I'd mention that the spanielhybrids.com website is no longer working. Are these the same Bear Country puppy mill / Spaniel Hybrid people? I didn't know they were breeding Clumber Spaniels, but I remember hearing a lot of very bad things about the Bear Country Springer Spaniel breeder at our vet clinic when we lived in Missoula. I'm confused, are these creeps back in Missoula or still in the Cascade area?

Yes Lumberstacker, these are the same people. I didn't know they had flipped it yet again, but yes, they seem to change their website name and move around a lot, don't they? Last I heard they were shipping clumber/springer mixed breed puppies out of Great Falls and telling people to pick up puppies in Helena. Glad you are looking for an AKC purebred Clumber, from a decent breeder.

I am not sure what to believe on here but this is my story and it's sad. I purchased a dog from Deanna last October. I never got him because he "supposedly" died. They took him trick or treating with their children and he got hit by a car. Since then I have been trying to get my money back from her which has mostly been unsuccessful. I got $100 back out of the $800. I got frightened when she took her page off of facebook and changed her website name. It makes me feel like she is running from something or someone. We have emailed each other back and forth and it always seems like she has some excuse as to why she can't give me the money. She did promise the full refund as I never went back on the sale. She tried to give me another dog but my heart was set on the one I picked out. I have no idea how to get my money back and my heart is broken. There are pics of the puppy on her new website which makes me even sadder. This whole experience has been quite tragic for me.

I was too harsh on this breeder due to emotional circumstances. The breeder is resolving the payment issue with me. Yes, it is tragic that the puppy died. Accidents happen and she is doing things to resolve the issue. A Clumber/Springer Mix is probably an amazing dog. Best of both worlds when done properly.

In reference to all the negative, misleading information floating around the web. I would personally like to set the record straight.
In 1997 I purchased three totally unrelated Springer's locally through out Montana, two females and a male, whom lived to a ripe old age of 14, 15 & 16. They were as healthy and as sweet as can be :) no health problems ever ! At that time I contacted the local English Springer Spaniel Field Trial Association requesting information & asking how to join, I was interested in enrolling my Springer's in AKC field events. I was quickly notified by "whom I believe" to be Angela Monaghan the owner of Hellfiregundogs. I was told I did not qualify to be part of their association because I was a puppy mill with dogs that were not worthy of competing. I believe it was Angela because of the instant unprofessional response. I had 3 dogs? And then the horror/stalking/slander began !
From that point on she has tried to make it her life long mission to make my life basically a living hell with her lies, false complaints, and harassment. She has contacted AKC, Animal Control, the Montana State Attorney General, BBB, Springer Rescue, and anyone else that would listen to her lies. In 2007 she complained to AKC that we had as many as a 100 dogs on our property, and requested the do an unannounced visit. Obviously her efforts in contacting these other organizations got her no where as I did NOT have a puppy mill but rather a very well maintained and organized family run kennel. We had 26 adult dogs, five of which were spayed and neutered house pets and 2 litters of puppies.
In the last 18 years of breeding I have run into genetic problems in some of our puppies (as most all breeders do) with some of the so called excellent champion show and champion field lines that I had purchased. I had nine complaints TOTAL (in eighteen years) ranging from Springer rage, blindness, epilepsy, allergies & parasites. I believe these genetic problems were due to the extensive line breeding that occurs in champion bred pedigrees. Parasites were brought into my kennel with dogs I had purchased from so called respectable breeders. That is why I no longer breed purebred Springer's. In the last 3 years I have only bred limited litters of Clumber/Springer cross puppies that have had no health issues or any kind of parasites.
Last year we had 6 very adorable healthy, happy litters ~ two of which were co-owned. All of them went to very loving homes that have stayed in contact with us. :)
Please see the attached response from Ed Franceschina (an AKC inspector) to Angela Monaghan, which is just one piece of paper out of many boxes that I have collected over the years showing her obsession & lies. She has used these officials as a form of harassment, with every one of them proving her accusations to be false.
I own four females and two males that are our family pets. I am a hobby breeder now because of my deep love for the Springer and Clumber Spaniels and I cant imagine my life with out them! Angela is still referring to me as a puppy mill, but after recently looking at her website/blog it appears she has almost 30 dogs!... 15 females and 13 males. It appears he now has more dogs than I did three years ago when she was calling me a puppy mill. If you read through her blog you can see that she has had her share of health problems as well. In my opinion she is very narcissistic and is not a very nice person AT ALL ! Feel free to contact AKC representative Mr. Ed Franceschina with any questions you may have in regards to Angela Monaghans outrageous lies, I have always been in compliance with AKC`s rules and regulations. I am also in the process of legal action against Ms. Angela Monaghan.

This is how unprofessional and insane Angela Monaghan is. She sent me this letter ten years ago and I'm not sure what kind of delusional state of mind she was in, but I never copied anything from her website or really understood what this letter was all about, besides her insane obsession with me.

I totally agree with ctshaw as I am also into the field trials and have personally been around Angela Monaghan many times unfortunately. Everyone in the circle of field trials refers to her as the "Queen B" and the "B" is NOT in reference to a "Bee" if you know what I mean. Obviously Angela is unprofessional in every aspect of her pathetic life. NO ONE likes her, or cares to be around her. She is a typical trust fund baby that acts like a spoiled, self righteous, pampered brat when she doesn't get her way or a decision isn't to her liking. I have seen her throw tantrums, cuss out judges, talk horrible about fellow competitors and slander them as she has done to Mrs Lamphier. This is nothing new and anyone who knows her and will tell you so. She puts down even the very people who purchase her animals. There is no boundaries when it comes to this very disturbed woman. Keep your head up Mrs.Lamphier and good luck with your legal action as it looks like the last thing Angela would want to do is show up in court against you, you have an excellent case against her tirades. You also have beautiful puppies and after seeing your website you look like the farthest thing from a puppy mill.
P.S. Anyone who needs a good laugh should go to Angela's site ( www.hellfiregundogs.com ) and take a peek at her female Sussex, a horrible representation of the breed that hopefully she has no plans of breeding/showing/trialing.

Seriously? In her own words, in the above post, Deanna sets the record straight by claiming to have 4 females and had six litters of mixed breed puppies last year. Will it be 8 this year? Then she wonders why people think she is unstable and unethical. I wonder how many times they will be bred in their lives, 15-20, even more, until they are dead maybe?