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Hit Web Design

Hit Web Design review: Website & Hosting Errors 158

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10:05 pm EST
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Hit Web Design is the worst company I have ever dealt with. They start out seeming like they are goinjg to create a good site for you and the services are absolutely horrible. As soon as they began hosting my website, it has been a nightmere. My email hasn't worked since they transferred it from my previous host (which was 6 months ago) and no one seems to know how to fix it. The website is horrible and they have horrible customer service. If you are thinking about using this company, please don't. They will take your money and you will never be able to get any issue resolved because they are incompetant. I have sent numerous emails and been on the phone trying to get in touch with someone who can help and it is impossible. This is the absolute worst web hosting company around. Aweful!

Update by Scenic City Exteriors
Feb 15, 2011 1:23 am EST

Yes I would like to join you too. This company is such a rip-off.

Resolved

The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.

158 comments
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idontcryanymore
ut co, US
Send a message
Nov 03, 2009 3:50 pm EST

30 LAYOFFS THIS MORNING? ANYONE KNOW THE FACTS...?

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Knowledgeformore
Marlboro, US
Send a message
Feb 10, 2010 10:28 am EST

This comapny SUCKS! again it SUCKS!
They took forever to comlplete the website, more than 2 months, even though it was just a ZEN cart style website which is basically some templates that require modifying and editing. They took 4 months to finish an update to the website! so basically if you are trying to do anyupdate for Christmas season you will have to request it by Easter! this company is not organized, and DESIGNERS WORK FROM HOME, which means they never answer their phone, and in my case they never answer emails either, only customer service answer emails. Ironically, they sent me an email asking about my feedback regarding the experience so i went on and on about all the negatives and how dealing with HIT web design was a nightmare and they NEVER got back to me, even though their email message said that they will get back to me within 24 hours! Again, if you would like a website just go do it somewhere else, this company will bring you nothing except pain, frustration, and fighting over every single aspect of the whole experience and by the way i was super fast in replying to all their emails regarding the construction of the website, I have a blackberry and I used to reply to the emails almost instantenously and yet they SUCK! I wish I can sue them or maybe put'em all in jail. They are a waste of time and a horrible company.

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jimbojones
Costa Mesa, US
Send a message
Mar 24, 2010 11:17 pm EDT

This about sums up my experience with them TERRIBLE CO.

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Coleman_Solutions
US
Send a message
Feb 03, 2011 7:06 pm EST

I am going after this company strong and FAST! Anyone care to join?

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another victim
Missoula, US
Send a message
Feb 03, 2011 7:41 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Yes, I would like to join you. It's about time.

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YUP...I got GOT
Navarre, US
Send a message
Feb 21, 2011 7:07 pm EST

I am in as well.

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ethicalhit
Provo, US
Send a message
Feb 22, 2011 3:54 am EST

I suggest that you follow my steps to get your money back, and hopefully you used your VISA or MasterCard when you went with Hit Web Design, because if you went with American Express or Discover Card it will be harder to get your money back.

Step 1: Call your Bank or Credit Card company, and do a charge back. Do not let hit get any more of your money and try to get as much of it back as you can.
Step 2: Contact the Utah Attorney General's Office and file a formal complaint with them about your relationship with Hit Web Design.
Step 3: Contact the BBB and file a formal complaint with them.
Step 4: Contact your local newspaper, radio and TV station and inform them of your experience.
Step 5: post ALL over the internet your experience, and post your results!

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Empower by knowledge
Provo, US
Send a message
Feb 26, 2011 2:30 am EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Violations of Anit-Discrimination for non-payment of wages and paying wages with NSF funds have been issued against this company. Employees who have not been paid are encouraged to file a wage claim through the Utah Division of Labor. There is a 5% penalty per day up to 20 days for non payment of wages per pay check. Outsource employees from any state can complete the wage claim form. Google for Utah Wage Claim. It is available from the Utah Division of Labor. You can continue to work for the company and file a claim. If you have not been paid, we encourage you to really think about why you work for free. If you live in Utah you can file for unemployment benefits for just cause of non-payment of wages. Many employees who have left this company have found new jobs and are much much happier.

Consumers are encouraged to contact their credit card companies and request a refund for failure to deliver a product. Due to the heavy indebtedness of this company it is encourage that your file as quickly as you can. It is estimated that the company owes $340K in back wages in addtion to the liens noted above. Consumers need to know that their sites are on servers through Fibernet. This company i.e. HIT Web does not host websites, it sells website hosting through a third party vendor i.e. Fibernet. When this company files bankruptcy, which it should have done long before now, your site may shut down for non-payment of services by fibernet. There is a question of where all of the money this company has taken in has gone, the IRS is not paid, Aenta Health was not paid its premiums and was granted a judgment, employees are not paid, the company has no assets. Those defending the company here on this site no longer work for the company. The promise to pay wages knowing that you can not pay them is fraud. The only purpose for telling anyone that you will pay wages when you know that you cannot pay them is to obtain labor from them for free. The information contained herein has been reported to the Utah County Attorney's office.

Many ask why this has gone on so long; in the words of one management member "because no one knows how to take us to court". If you have not been paid wages and have been promised to be paid, if you have received NSF checks that are still outstanding you are encouraged to request that the Provo police crime division take a report. They will attempt to discourage you by stating that you have to prove intent. The proof intent has already been gathered. If the detective will not take the report, ask to speak with the Cheif. The county attorney's office cannot do anything unless they get as much information as they can on this company. If you have problems with the police taking a report, please contact the attorney's general office ask for Scott Reed the criminal attorney. You can find the information by going the the UT Attorney General's website. The Crime goes on because no one will prosecute due to lack of funding. The attorney's general office can request funding if the complaints are sufficient. Also, please contact Sentor Orin Hatch's office. Funding in Utah county, State of Utah needs to be available for this type of crime.

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another victim
Missoula, US
Send a message
Feb 26, 2011 4:44 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

@empowered - Great Post!

I haven't seen anyone mention that their "terms of service" agreement is a totally bogus document meant to intimidate. Under point 46, they state "Client specifically agrees not to engage in negative comments or slander regarding Hit, including but not limited to publishing or causing published, complaints, or derogatory comments ... Should there be a breach of this condition HIT will be entitled to liquidated damages in the amount of $2, 500 for each publishing or posting ... "
I guess no one has told them that we live in a country where freedom of speech is a right.

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Empower by knowledge
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 02, 2011 5:19 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Utah County, State of Utah is one of the leading places nationwide in white collar crimes that go un-prosecuted due to a lack of funding and allocated resources.

The Utah County Attorney cannot or will not investigate nor prosecute a crime without a police report. Once they receive a report, they must choose which cases to pursue. NSF checks payable to employees or consumers are low on the list. They refer the lack of payment of wages to the Utah Labor Commission. They refer the NSF check to customers to their local police department. The local police department refers the victim to the police department where the business does business, which in this case is Provo Police Department.

Consumers must file a police report before the County Attorney can even consider the case regarding the taking of funds from account without authorization, the promise to deliver services and the keep of funds paid even though the services are never delivered or delivered satisfactorily.

The Utah County, Provo Police Department discourages the filing of police reports, claiming that the victim has to prove intent. They have also informed individuals that they can take the report, but that the County Attorney will just send it back to them and do nothing.

The Attorney Generals office gives out this response:

“Thank you for writing to the Utah Attorney General's Office. The Attorney General’s Office is counsel to the state agencies. A case would have to be referred by a state agency in order for this office to get involved as we can only advise our client agencies. The Labor Commission is a state agency and they would have to refer a case to our office in order for us to get involved and we would represent them in court.

I trust you will find this helpful.”

The BBB take reports, it does not resolve them nor does it possess any authority to do anything about the complaints. It has been under investigation for buy outs for improved ratings, though this company has the lowest rating it can get. Filing a complaint with the BBB make the complaints available to anyone using the BBB as a reference, however the marking of the complaint as resolved does not necessary mean to the satisfaction of the Consumer.

EMPLOYEES WHO HAVE NOT BEEN PAID:

You can continue to work for the company and file a wage claim. If you have not been paid, we encourage you to really think about why you work for free. The claim that you will not get paid any faster if you file a wage claim is simply not true. In addition to your wages, you will also be entitled to receive ½ of the 5% daily penalty. You can contact the division of labor at [protected] if you have any questions. You can fax it for $0.98 at http://www.gotfreefax.com/. Even if you work outside he state of Utah, you should file your wage claim with the Utah Division of Labor as the company is within its legal jurisdiction. Other rules may apply to your state, we suggest that you contact your states labor division for any questions.

If you live in Utah you can file for unemployment benefits for just cause of non-payment of wages. A partial wage is not a full wage and therefore qualifies as non-payment of wages. Contact the Utah Unemployment Services at [protected] or Apply on line at https://jobs.utah.gov/ui/InitialClaims . You will need to register for work through the Department of Workforce Services at https://jobs.utah.gov/sso/login.aspx?application=UWORKS&returnurl=%2Fjsp%2Futahjobs%2Flogin.do

The unemployment office will tell you that they need to review your case before making a decision to see if you qualify. You should be aware that the unemployment claims of those who have left this company for Non-sufficient fund payroll checks and/or, non payment of payroll have been approved. There is usually a 1 week delay before benefits begin. The amount of benefits that you may receive is determined on a case by case basis. You may speak with a representative of the Utah Unemployment Services to help you determine the amount of benefits you will receive.

Many employees who have left the company have found new jobs and are much happier due to the elimination of the stress of not know if or when they will be paid.

CONSUMERS THAT HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE PRODUCT or ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THE SERVICE:

You may file a civil suite for failure to deliver services/product in a timely and workmanlike manner with the Utah County Justice Court. The small claims court address is:

310 West Center Street
Provo, UT 84601

Main Telephone: [protected]
Main Fax: [protected]

Forms are available at

http://www.utcourts.gov/howto/smallclaims/

Filing Fees

Small Claims
$2, 000 or less (1)(c)(i) 60.00
Greater than $2, 000 and less than $7, 500 100.00
Greater than $7, 500 and less than $10, 000 185.00

Amounts over $10, 000.00 are filed through a civil proceeding in the Utah County District Court, located in Provo Utah.

If you live out of state or cannot travel to appear in court, contact the court and request to appear telephonically. You must appear either in person or over the phone. If you fail to appear the your case may be dismissed.

Contact your credit card company and file a claim for reimbursement of non-deliver of a product. Ask for a new credit card to prevent any further payments for being debited.

If you used a debit card, contact your financial institution and request a stop payment on any transaction from this company. Request that your account number be changed due to unauthorized debits.

Keep in mind that this company will use the contract against refunding any payments.

The (TOS) Terms of service that states

7. Intellectual Property Policy

Domain names purchased by HIT and website designs, databases, stores, or programs created by HIT are the property of HIT until Client has paid all fees including one full year of monthly hosting. (See Domain Names Purchase/Hosting Agreement

11. Completion Timeframes
Client understands, agrees and acknowledges that HIT does not guarantee a time frame for completion of ANY website.

34. Cancellation Fee and Refund Policy

MINIMUM CANCELLATION FEE – Client agrees that a minimum cancellation fee of 50% will be retained by HIT on all cancelled accounts even if no work has been started.

100% cancellation fee will be retained and NO REFUND will be issued by HIT if Client cancels after 90 days from the initial sale

No Refund will be issued on any website cancelled after services have been rendered, including but not limited to, the design work having been completed and/or the website taken live.

Beware of any contract that states:
• cancellation fee of 50%.
• does not guarantee a time frame for completion.
• no refund after 90 day of initial sale.

Such a company is not under any pressure to perform, they postpone the work as long as they like and then claim that it is past the 90 days and you are not entitled to a refund. There are plenty of developers out there that will not have you sign a contract such a contract. An ethical company would provide a full refund, if services are not rendered, they would also deliver a product to the full satisfaction of the purchaser.

Be advised that this company does not own the web servers that the sites are hosted on. At present they lease the server space through Fibernet, they use freeware OS and server software. Their contract locks you into payment of one year of web hosting through them or you do not own your site.

This contract is too one sided and not for mutual benefit of all the parties. Stay away from it.

OTHER INFORMATION:

This company owes more than 8.5 million in taxes running back to 2006. They owe approximately $340, 000.00 in back wages with a bimonthly payroll of $120, 000.00 or $240, 000.00 per month. Plus they have a judgment against them for $44, 000.00 from Aetna Health. They have no assets and lease a run down bowling alley.

They receive an estimated $600, 000.00 in monthly merchant transactions.

The inside set up resembles a boiler room. It does not presently look like the pictures on its site. It is fairly dark inside because most of the lights are off. Carpet is torn and unclean. The treatment of its employees has been described like a sweat shop. Several employees have lost everything and have become homeless due to the non-payment of wages.

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whitvalid
Pleasant Grove, US
Send a message
Mar 03, 2011 11:06 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

I'm still hoping I'll get my paycheck dated 01/10/2011 (That I received in the mail on 02/14) cashed before it is no longer valid in seven days.

But that's a far fetche hope.

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ethicalhit
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 5:29 am EST

Heritage Web Solutions/ Hit Web Design closed it doors for good today at 11:00. Currently if you are a Heritage Web Solutions customer you can only access your account by contacting the server company Fiber Net http://www.fiber.net/content/heritage-and-hit-web-design

If you have paid money to Hit Web Design/ Heritage Web Solutions I suggest you do a Charge back on your Credit Card immediately and see if you can get anything back.

Please post your stories.

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hitexemployee
provo, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 5:48 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

HIT WEB DESIGN IS NOW OUT OF BUSINESS! WE are all screwed!

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rightnowweb
Chicago, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 6:29 pm EST

Yes it is true HIT Web Design has closed their doors as of March 8th, 2011. I've been trying to reach out to previous customers to help them get things sorted out. We would like to make ourselves a resource for those who have been burned by the company. We have references from other HIT customers who can attest to our reliability and excellent work. Please feel free to reach out to us if you need help moving things forward. We can be reached by visiting our website rightnowwebdesign.com

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getstarcpr
San Diego, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 7:14 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

I would like to join the lawsuit with you against HitWeb. My email is firefighter1998@aol.com. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help out.
I have recently noticed they have shut down. I tried calling but got a recording stating fibernet has now taken over.

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Strandedsean
Elkhart, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 8:32 pm EST

The Utah BBB has listed HIT as no longer in business. I contacted the police department today and they knew straight away what company I was calling about. They explained the company had been very careful about stepping outside the lines of the law. She went on to say typically the company was safe because they never gave a time frame as to when they would produce a product. With the company now out of business I see no way for them to hide behind that line anymore. Sgt Crosby is the detective in chrage. I encourage every person who has had money stollen from them by HIT to contact the police department. I called [protected].

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getstarcpr
San Diego, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 10:56 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

EVERYONE THERE IS HOPE! PLEASE PLEASE FILE A CLAIM WITH THE PROVO, UT POLICE DEPARTMENT! THEY ARE NOW TAKING REPORTS AND/OR COMPLAINTS AGAINST HIT WEB DESIGN FOR ANY FRAUD OR SCAM ACTIVITY. YOU CAN ASK FOR OFFICER DICK OR SGT. CROSBY - [protected] CALL! THE MORE CALLS THE BETTER. I JUST FILED MY CLAIM AND RECEIVED A CASE NUMBER. WHEN I CALLED AND MENTIONED HIT WEB DESIGN THEY ALREADY KNEW ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS THAT HAVE BEEN COMING IN. I DID MY PART TO SEE JUSTICE SERVED. I HOPE YOU WILL DO THE SAME. GOOD LUCK EVERYONE! ! _________________________________________

AGAIN THE NUMBER IS:
PROVO, UT POLICE DEPARTMENT
[protected] OR [protected]

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pacsij
East Stroudsburg, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 11:11 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Well the message I got when I called today was that Hosting was taken over by Fibernet. Now what happens to my Website/Store?

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Socalflyboy
Chula, US
Send a message
Mar 09, 2011 11:17 pm EST

Call Provo Utah police and speak with officer dick or sgt. Crosby they are taking reports. They are scam artists. The number is [protected]

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phase2tc.com
US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 12:38 am EST

Anyone looking for a new host/design company, Phase2tc.com welcomes you with open arms! One of my current clients is a former HIT customer and I'm all too familiar with this. Special pricing for those who have been burned!

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hitexemployee
provo, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 1:01 am EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

I have talked to the utah county attorneys office and they said that there will be an investigation. They sent me a questionaire to fill out. I also called to get unemployement benefits. They told me that HIT web design hasnt paid into the unemployment fund for over 6 months. Luckily, I had an old open case and that I will receive benefits, but it looks grim for most of the employees. I hope they get the owners!

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pacsij
East Stroudsburg, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 1:27 am EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

I had an online chat with Fiber.net earlier - they are the company whose servers HIT uses. They will be posting information regarding HIT's abrupt closing and when they will have access to obtaining whatever/any files necessary for those of us that have a website/store up and running

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sydnistar
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 3:47 am EST

hi, I agree. I worked there up till the day they closed the doors. In fact they even interviewed an individual at 11am and then called us in for a meeting at 11:30am to tell us the doors are closed. I still haven't received a paycheck and they still haven't emailed me back. So, I agree. I wrote to get gephardt? I think that's him. You can email me at: sydnistar@hotmail.com Empower by knowledge, did you send the mass email to the employees inboxs a few days before they closed? And the owner kept emailing back? haha, well we had a meeting about it on like that Thursday then they closed the doors the following Tuesday.. The words that came out of their mouths. lol. Anyway, i'm in, my email again is: sydnistar@hotmail.com. So, please email. Thanks.

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KroZ
Chicago, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 6:19 am EST

I am out 4k and still without a website...I'm on board for whatever you guys want to do. So angry right now!

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KroZ
Chicago, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 6:20 am EST

Forgot to include my email...elfamousburrito@gmail.com

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7summitsgear
Sandy, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 2:42 pm EST

I have a online store with hit www.7summitsgear.com I have been out of town for about a week and the news just reached me. I went to fibernets website and there is a page you can go to and fill out a form and someone will contact you. Now I need to find a new web designer I can trust and this time I will go to the BBB website and plug there name in. If I did that from the start of all of this I would have never gone with Hit. Lesson learned.

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Web Design
Raleigh, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 3:36 pm EST

Please deal with a trusted american company who does all the work in America. http://www.amoyod.com we are here for all customers of HIT that got screwed.

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srewhitweb
mamaroneck, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 5:26 pm EST

snieto21@gmail.com.. i'm out money and angry

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another victim
Missoula, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 5:38 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

I feel for the people and their families who worked at this company and did not get paid, and I have far more respect for those that left this company because of the ethics this company exuded. For those of you that paid money to have a web site developed that never materialized, I urge you to go today and file a claim with your credit card carrier. This is probably the only possibility of getting your money back. Lesson learned, always check up on companies before I hire someone to do anything!

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heatherstuartuk
Burke, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 7:05 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Although I'm glad these jerks finally got their come-uppance, I'm also confused about what happens to the guts of my data system and site. Any suggestions?

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ethicalhit
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 7:17 pm EST

Hit Web Design has already set up shop again and is already scamming people again. They are now doing business as ISO Webworks

this is their new URL
http://isowebworks.com/

Their phone number is
[protected]

This company is currently registered to their former CTO Kevin Morrill
https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/details?entity=7933558-0160

Contact them and demand your paycheck or your refund.

ExHitDesigner
ExHitDesigner
Logan, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 8:08 pm EST

Ethical, how are you sure this is them, I called just now and asked if they had any affiliation with HIT, they said no, then I asked where are you located, they said in Utah, coincidence, I think not but how did you find this out. I am actually a former employee and witnessed their slasher style layoff of about 30% of their employees ( which I luckily survived) and a pay decrease o about 35% overnight. Worst company I have ever worked for!

What I don't get is how can you stop a conning juggernaut like hit and its owners so that cant hurt decent people trying to outsource their business/trades/services and their pockets? Its such a shame!

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HitWebDesign
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 8:11 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

I can't believe Hit Web Design is now ISO Webworks!

ExHitDesigner
ExHitDesigner
Logan, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 8:18 pm EST

Wow you know whats funnier, I went to the site you posted about Business ownership, and your right, it shows: Registered Agent: Kevin Morrill
Registered Agent Address:
4472 Osprey Way Eagle Mountain UT 84005

So I go look up the address on google maps and The truck in the drive way looks just like My former Boss (at HiTWebDesign/Company CEO) Reddish Orange truck that was parked outside of Hits headquarters, coincidence... Nah. Then it reminds me on how the id a story on an Eagle Mountain Man who adopts children from Haiti, His name is ... Yep David Aiken, check it out:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705359625/Eagle-Mountain-family-hoping-to-bring-Haitian-children-home.html

Heartwarming, I hope he doesn't treat those kids like his business'! This is fun, lets see what more I can dig up!

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HitWebDesign
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 8:22 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

WOW. Just WOW!

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getstarcpr
San Diego, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 9:58 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

YOU CAN FILE A CLAIM WITH THE PROVO, UT POLICE DEPARTMENT. THEY ARE TAKING REPORTS AND/OR COMPLAINTS AGAINST HIT WEB DESIGN FOR ANY FRAUD OR SCAM ACTIVITY. YOU CAN ASK FOR OFFICER DICK OR SGT. CROSBY - [protected] I JUST FILED MY CLAIM AND RECEIVED A CASE NUMBER. WHEN I CALLED AND MENTIONED HIT WEB DESIGN THEY ALREADY KNEW ABOUT THE COMPANY & COMPLAINTS THAT HAVE BEEN COMING IN. I DID MY PART TO SEE JUSTICE SERVED. I HOPE YOU WILL DO THE SAME.

NUMBER IS:
PROVO, UT POLICE DEPARTMENT
[protected] OR [protected]
Good Luck !

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HIT's Trauma Bond
Provo, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 10:40 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

isowebworks.com was only registered in February of this year. It is HIT at it again! Wow, we need to do something about this.

ExHitDesigner
ExHitDesigner
Logan, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 11:01 pm EST

A forum for the Scorned!: http://www.complaintsboard.com/panel.php?action=groups&subaction=view&id=3001

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whitvalid
Pleasant Grove, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 11:47 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Kevin Morrill wasn't just an employee at HIT Web. He was a VP, which in that company is the top of the ladder. There were only four of them.

Kevin Morill was involved in every owners' meeting. Fascinating.

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whitvalid
Pleasant Grove, US
Send a message
Mar 10, 2011 11:49 pm EST
Verified customer This complaint was posted by a verified customer. Learn more

Re: ExHitDesigner:
he buys those kids with the income taxes cut off paychecks but never sent to the IRS.
technically those kids belong to the government

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