Realtor.com review: the biggest scam website ever! 63

This guy is a scam artist. Don't do any kind of business with him.

I am so disgusted with realtor.com. I had a very smooth salesperson contact me 4 months ago about a new lead generation system they were starting. He explained i would have shared exclusitivity with one other agent for a top zip code in orlando. Now mind you i work with lead generation systems so i know they take a lot of work. Well its been four months (At $99 per month) and i have received 12 leads. This zip is in downtown orlando mind you.

Every lead is what i call a dead lead. Not one person has replied to an email and when i have set up searches the lead cancels out right away. I feel so strongly that this is a scam that i get up in every board class and announce to everyone the issues i have with this company.

I still get to enjoy handing them over another 800. 00 for this awful service.

When i contacted them at first i was told they were working out the kinks in the new system. I told them i don't want to be a guniea pig. I want out and i might come back when it is everything the salespeopson said it was. They said ok let me transfer you to the cancellation dept. Then the cancellation dept said they don't have any issues and they could cancel me if i pay the balance in full say what ?

Today when i called the lady manager named kelly wilkerson said well i should have never listened to the salesperson as thats their job. . . That i should have called in and asked customer service their thoughts before i signed up. I told her i am confused. . I am a salesperson but as a realtor i must be honest. . . I guess realtor.com doesn't have to be honest according to her.

Sorry to ramble, i just work so very hard for every penny and this is just a scam as far as i am concerned.

I had a similar experience with Realtor.com. The salesperson made all kinds of promises and assured us that we could cancell the service (banner ads) if we didn't get the click-thoughs that they assured... After three months of trying to cancel the program, we finally called our credit card company to stop payment... Realtor.com fought back and now I am stuck paying for their USELESS service for a FULL YEAR, despite their sales persons claims otherwise.

I teach Internet Lead Generation for Realtors and I can assure you that not only do I speak negatively of Realtor.com myself, but so do many other Realtors who have had similar awful experiences.

I, too, was taken by Realtor.com. They ran a banner ad for one full year without my approval and charged me for the entire contract. No matter how many times I tried to get my banner ad done to my specifications, including having my graphic artist send them camera ready artwork which also cost me additional dollars, they continued to run the ad, forced me to fulfill the contract and never even attempted to make good for their error. They are crooks, pure and simple! They constantly call to get me to order more products until I remind them to look closely at my file. They tell me things which some person wrote into my electronic file, which I can not verify or dispute because they don't have to have facts, just some salesperson's opinion. This was an entire ripoff and I have spent more than one year telling everyone I can find how dishonest they are. As soon as my current contract expires, I will not renew. I, unlike them, honor my obligations! And to think that they are owned by the very company, Realtor.org, that we all pay dues to...NAR! How sick is that?

Received numerous calls from kyle suffolk [protected] who had been giving me the real sales pitch on realtor.com "buyer's assist" - "search assist" for $99. 00 per month / 12 month commitment, i would be receiving 10 - 15 real estate buyer leads from this firm. Since i have signed up i received 1 lead that wasn't even in my service area or zip code territory. It has been a huge waste of money and my messages to kyle suffolk and realtor.com have been dismissed. If you are a realtor and realtor.com starts soliciting your business, i would suggest that you hang up.
This is the biggest waste of $1, 188 of my career. It's hard to believe that this firm would try to take advantage of me, a realtor. It was only later, that i realized that many other realtors nationwide have been ripped - off by this same firm and this bogus lead generation program. After reading all the complaints in this firm, it is clear that realtor.com has been using misleading advertising to realtors in order to generate revenue for quite sometime now.
Email address of kyle suffolk [protected] at realtor.com:
Kyle. Suffolk@realtor.com
- in case this snake oil salesperson contacts you!

By Author, California Broker: ~ Realtor.com Internet Fraud Complaint~
The Customer Service Department of Realtor.com contacted me today and was very courteous. We got everything resolved to my satisfaction. Updated on 12/20/2010

I signed up their 1 year service after a pretty smooth sales pitch promising all kinds of leads and business generation . It was like $60 a month. for enhanced listings and a simple website. After not one phone call or lead off Realtlor.com or my website I called to cancel and they said I couldn't because I had a "contract". I said I thought it unfair and non integrous that I had to pay for something that I was not happy with. Their response was basically "to bad" you have a contract which I didn't sign or remember them saying that I couldn't cancel if I was not happy. Thankfully I used my American Express! I called and explained my situation to the AMEX rep and they put in a inquiry that credited that months payment and stopped all future auto payments to Realtor.com and their Top Producer website. I then started getting emails from them saying my payment was past due, which I responded "talk to American Express". A month later after American Express did their investigation it blocked all future billings from them. I then stopped getting the emails. Thanks AMEX!

I too have been taken by realtor.com with an agent profile and banner Ad. I wish it was only $99/month. I am paying $283+/mo since December 2010 and have received no leads nothing from having my profile and banner on their site. To top it off I spent two months of calling trying to get them to update my banner Ad which had a brokerage firm I had not worked for in over 2 years. I have just taken the battle on and will be calling my credit card company to fight this one since they gave me the company line that I could not cancel until Dec 2011. The sales rep who I have never spoken to wants me to contact his "creative team" so they can fix my banner as if this would make any difference since I want to cancel. They are holding me hostage right now and I am mad as heck! I thought they would be more honest than this but obvioiusly not. It seems customer satisfaction is on their priority list.

I have sent realtor.com 4 emails about my leaderboard not working. They do not have the decency to email me back and help me work on the leaderboard to get it to attract customers. I do have in writing a month to month agreement from them. I think they are solely in the business for the money, not the customer service taht goes along with it.

Realtor.com has ripped me off! I signed up with them at the NAR conference and they assured me that I could cancel my contract when I went with a new broker Jan 1 who already paid for an office account. Needless to say, that salesman is now saying that he didn't say that. That's funny b/c both my new broker and I heard that! Also, they called and called and called me to set up everything. I blocked an hour out of my day (which is a pretty huge block of time for something like this), but the rep never called me! She said she forgot or some other lame excuse. I only was given paperwork that does not say anything about a year contract even though they say I signed it. If I don't have it and they aren't sending it to me, how can they hold me to it? I will never advertise with them again and will tell everyone I know how they lie just to make the sale.

They are scam artists be careful and do research before you fall pray to their promises

I have had a horrible experience with realtor.com. I paid 159/month for a banner ad for a year and got nothing for it. I also paid 75/month for a zip code and got zilch as well. I had a 1-888 number where people would call me and they would ask for the social security office, a rental office in Virginia, all kinds of crazy stuff, or my phone would ring and I would answer it and it would be someone from California and they would claim I called them. I have wasted 1000's on this and got nothing for it. I think it is criminal and they will never get another penny of my money. They are now calling me to renew pretending to know nothing about all the complaints I have phoned in and emailed. STAY FAR AWAY from this company. They take our hard earned money and give nothing in return.

I don't understand how a "professional" Co. like REALTOR.com would behave like thugs! I paid $230.00/mth for a zip code in an upper class neighborhood, received some leads but they were all nonproductive in that the buyers/sellers changed their minds, just a tax question, just looking or they already had an agent. I get the impression that maybe REALTOR.com is paying "fakes" to follow up on fake leads to keep the real estate agent from canceling. I am going to make a complaint with the FBI for Internet fraud. I would advise you to do the same if you have been scammed. Please go to http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx Internet Crime Complaint Center IC3. Lets have the FBI GO THROUGH THEIR FILES to see if they are using fake "buyers/sellers" and stop ripping off agents.

realtor.com ARE scammers! They charged products to my credit card without my consent : Buyer Assist products and the Rep who did it would no longer speak with me. All of a sudden, my account was no longer assigned to him, or anyone else! They put me on long hold times (20-30 miutes) each time I called in to get it resolved. Then one of their bullies, James Beaver came on the phone to tell me too bad, so sad and go through my credit card company to cancel if I want! He didn't even try to prove that I made the charges (which I did NOT) or save the client relationship. I will NEVER use them once the Featured Home I did order comes up for renewal. BEWARE! Watch your credit card bill like a hawk or just don't use Realtor.com.

Yep! I have my service expiring in June with them and they have stolen money from me this whole year! I will NEVER use them again.

I have lost alot more then $1, 188 from this company...sad to say. I have gotten bogus leads as well. On top of everything, my banner ad was NEVER done correctly, after calling in numerous times. I have their Featured Homes product which I will not be renewing once it runs out. Stay far far away from this company. They prey on Realtors.

Many old listings stay for long. Estimated value is not even close to real market values. Don't bother using it.

Went with Realtor.com 7 month and they auto renewed me in March 2013. I had stopped receiving leads in Feb. I was also told when I signed up that my zip co was exclusive to me, , wrong. I share it with other Realtors but was told by the salesman at the git go it was mine exclusively. I called to cancel and was told I couldn't because they had a contract with me. So I said I would stop payment thru my bank, I called the bank and they said I could not stop payment because I had a contract with Realtor.com and both parties have to agree to stop payment. So.. I'm going to loose my card and get a new bank too since they won't help me and start over. Let them chase me for the money. Also I think NAR should be ashamed to be associated with such a bunch of liars. I wish I could cancel them too. I can't think of a thing they have done for me and I still have to pay dues, or my local board won't recognize me or my mls service won't either. They are all a bunch of scammers. I'd quit real estate all together but its a good job for a retiree.

For 10 years I was very loyal to realtor.com. The problem resolution department were absolute idiots, but I could work around them. I spend $10k a year on Realtor.com's showcase enhancements, featured listing spots, website, banner and various other products. Realtor.com was responsible for 1/3 of my business. In the middle of 2012, Realtor.com took away the ability for agents to order featured listing spots online within the office showcase enhancement account; however, you could still order a feature listing spot in the individual account. I RUN from any high pressure sales (Realtor.com included) so instead of calling my account representative, I ordered my featured listing spots in the individual account online. The problem is that the only reason I had the office account is so I can have an advertising logo in my featured listing spots. If I'm ordering the featured listing in my individual account, then I'm not getting that logo. I called to cancel the office account and pay for the individual account in fall of 2013. I got the run around. I was sent to a product specialist. The only thing this product specialist did was to insult me. He basically stated that realtors were too stupid to order anything online. The information given was that 80% of all orders placed for featured listing spots online were messed up. I was asked to be elevated higher up. That request was ignored. A few months later I went to my account representative. She was useless. I was elevated to her manager in January of 2013. Although I could prove that they had no signed contract for this 2 year office showcase enhancement, I could not get the manager to cancel my office account. I knew they didn't have a signed contract because I had the contract in front of me UNSIGNED (I never sent it back). The solution that this manager came up with was that they would cancel the office account, but the 10 featured listing spots that I had ALREADY paid for in this account would have to be REPURCHASED for the full year in the individual account. A credit would have been given for the time I has left in the office account and I would have been charged a full year in the individual account for each featured listing spot. I was told that their systems would not allow them to do it any other way. I'm not that stupid. If you can cancel part of a year then you can purchase part of a year. I told this manager that was not an acceptable answer and to find another one. That was in January of 2013. It is now 4/30/2013. I've been ignored again for 3 months. I called up again today. I was sent to again to a product specialist who again insulted me and then started arguing with me (I think their job is to immediately make you feel stupid to imbalance you so they can then keep your in your product). Even as I had every legal right to get out of this product the product specialist was offering road blocks to keep me in the product. Even though I've been trying to do this for six months, the product specialist told me that I had a 60 wait period because I didn't notify them that I wanted to cancel. Curse words flew and I don't curse.

I used to drink Realtor.com's Kool-Aid. I was loyal to them because the system worked for me. However, I can't and will not give my hard earned money to a company who abuses their main clientele AND who thinks we are stupid. Zillow and Trulia, here I come.

One last tidbit of information for any of our lawyer friends reading this post. I have been told repeatedly by each representative that the customer service agreement that I acknowledged 10 years ago was my contract to purchase ANY PRODUCT from realtor.com. According to realtor.com that service agreement was/is my contract for my 2 year agreement to be in the office showcase enhancement account. Any input from the legal community is invited.

Yeah, I signed up for the co-broke connection and it's going on three months now. The account advisor that sold me said currently they are getting 24 to 26 leads every 6 months. Well, as of today I have received 6 leads with 4 of them couldn't get any response and the other 2 the credit to bad to buy. So, I have tried them and won't renew my contract. Now, I have spent $600 on bad stuff before but this is my number 1 stinker. I think $50 a lead is very over priced for a internet lead no matter who offers them to you. Oh, by the way...this is my 3rd account manager in the three months with Realtor.com. That says it all!

I have a lot to say so here I go, I bought 2 areas and so far I gotten around 10 leads since I been using co-broker from realtor.com and all but 1 where junk or aka spam! I'm paying $200 a month for garbage or $1200 in 6 months for LEADS that are either spam or fake. Now with that being said, I truly believe there maybe a couple of bad apples who I don't want to call a Realtor if they are doing this, who maybe FAKE pushing the "Request more info" to get back in front of line to get a lead.Now I said this cause I gotten FAKE leads from same email addresses but each time they used a different first n last name but same email address! Why do I think this is happing, well first of all, you may get 1 or 2 leads per week depends how many areas you buy but in my case I have 2 so I would get 2 leads within 1 week. Now lately I been getting leads from both my areas almost every day and that NEVER has happen before.It also happens in same time frame around evens time like after 6pm and sometimes in the morning around 8-9am.They never leave a phone number! #2, I also think it can be a issue how Realtor.com co-broke works is people send "Request more info" to more than 1 property and they get bunch of agents emailing or calling them about the properties.I know this for a fact because I been told couple times by clients saying they get different agents calling or emailing soon after sending the "Request" button.So overall this system and service is total junk, useless! Being a buyers agent I do buy leads from different providers but co-broke seems to be the WORSE OF ALL OF THEM!

Is your money trash? If you answer NO then DON'T give it to Realtor.com.
I fell for it beginning of 2014 but before the end of the first month I realized the leads were trash. So I tried to cancel the contract (easy contract done over the phone). I was talked into not cancelling till end of next month. So I was charged another month and more trash leads were sent over to me (4 per month), at anytime of day/night (one was sent at midnight). Leads without phone number and flaky buyer. I had paid extra for higher price range buyer however was given low end "leads". I cancelled my card since I was never given a formal cancellation, and disputed those two months. I lost the dispute. Today I received a communication from my bank with all the paperwork provided by Realtor.com. Remember whoever has more documentation wins a case. They are very slick, make false promises and false advertisement.
I hope you read this postings here before falling for Realtor.com!

I wish I had read all of the complaints before I got scammed by Realtor.com. I thought I could trust them since they are associated with the NAR. I was suckered into a low-income area pre-dominated by people who can not speak English. I was told that I would get 20 - 24 quality leads within a 6 month period. One lead had their kid talk to me because they could not speak English and was looking to rent a house. I do not deal with rentals and the property they were inquiring about was for sale not for rent. Another lead was a new agent who wanted to ask me questions about the company I work with. Another lead made an inquiry regarding a property but gave a bogus email address and no phone number. Another was already working with an agent who was having a hard finding her a $150, 000 home that will accept her $100, 000 offer. I tried to get my salesperson to put my account on hold until a desirable zip code became available. He said that he couldn't do that and instead suckered me into a different zip code that was a higher priced area and will cost be an additional $65 per month to the $100 that I am already paying. But he assured me that there definitely will be quality leads generated from this new zip code. NOT. And now that say I am committed for an additional 2 months because of the change. I repeatedly request to see the contract showing that I committed to anything and of course they can not produce it. My card is still being charged and I can't find anywhere online to change my method of payment.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I almost signed up to receive leads from Realtor.com, but after reviewing these comments I definitely will not. You just saved me $130mo. Thanks!

Thanks for all the info. I almost sign up yesterday. Thanks God I didn't.

Oh by the way they wanted to charge me $288.00 per month for 6 month for one exclusive zip code. Sales person was pushy and I felt very uncomfortable.

I have been using realtor.com Connection for Co-Broke, the system where you purchase buyer leads by zip code, since April 2013. I will not be renewing any of my contracts and plan to suspend all advertising I have.
How Leads are Counted: Realtor.com will not give me a legitimate answer as to how leads are counted. First, I was told within 30 days the same lead, meaning an individuals contact information, should only count once for all inquiries. Then I was told if this lead makes inquiries on different properties, those inquiries may or may not go to you, the person who initially received the lead, but if they do got you, they are counted as a new lead. (Bob inquiries about 123 Main St and about 456 Main St- Bob now counts as 2 leads, not 1).
Next I am told if a lead inquires about the same property twice that is still counted as two leads. (Bob fills out his contact info on 123 Main Street and submits; then does the exact same thing 1 minute later. Bob now counts as 2 leads).
I have received leads from other real estate agents and from phishing scams. I am just today finding out inquiries from other agents are not supposed to count against me, but they have been. I was told if I received a phishing scam I can forward the email to my rep and he will remove it; I have forwarded to him but the scammer leads have not been removed.
I have been told there is no way they can send me a list of the leads that have counted toward my total. The list I can access online shows many duplicates they are assuring me are only counted once; the people I have spoken to have told me they are looking at “my list” and it is only showing those duplicates as counting once. Yet when I ask if they can send me their version of the list, which only shows leads that have counted, I’m told no. I’m told my only course of action is if at the end of my 6 month contract if I feel I haven’t received the proper number of leads I can bring it to their attention. So... there is no way to know if a duplicate, phishing scam, or any other illegitimate lead is counted other than determining that you have not received the proper number at the end of your contract.
Lead Quality: crap. half never respond. 90+% of the others are not looking seriously, already working with an agent, don’t want to work with an agent, aren’t qualified to buy
Rep: He never answers his phone. I have to leave several voicemails over the course of several days for him to call me back. There have been times I’ve left him 4 voicemails with a question and he never called me back. He called me a week later to try to have me purchase an additional zip code and said “I’ve been meaning to call you…” I have called the general realtor.com number with my questions because he is so unresponsive and am always told I need to call my rep directly with any questions. Recently, while trying to determine with him which leads are counting and which aren’t, my rep told me he didn’t have time to discuss the issue with me any more and hung up.

I agree, i paid out $1200 for nothing but promises. Every time I called to complain I would get a lead 5 minutes later.
I did not receive one lead that went anywhere, most of the time I got no reply at all regardless of how quickly I responded.
Cheats and scammers!

I have the worst experience with realtors.com... they said that I was going to receive 24 leads in 1 month, Once you sing with them, they tell you that those 24 leads are in a period of 6 month.. Are you kidding me. Is $148 for 1 lead in and month?
In my first month I received just 1 lead I had and it was a ghost. I call them and after thousands of calls every day until they answer, they said that I can't cancel the contract. So they can still your money from you...
Is someone try to do something about it?

I experienced the same sales pitch of how the system will work and the type of leads I would receive. After 2 paid months and speaking to all 6 leads I received, the leads all expressed they signed up for information about one property and had no interest in working with a Realtor or even a MLS listing feed. Sales told me this new system was buyers signing up to have a Realtor work with them in finding a home. Which by the way is not what their signup asks the consumer. I called and canceled in September, yesterday I got an email saying my payment was late so I called and told them I canceled. They said I didn't speck to the magic person so I asked to be put through to him. He said his salesmen are the best and they would have never miss led me. My cancellation was denied. There are some great products out there(market leader, house hunt) that take pride in your happiness and success. Makes you wonder if the new owners of Realtor.com will succeed.

I had a smooth talking salesman contact me about an exclusive lead area in my neighborhood. I asked him if I could try it for a month, then cancel if it didn't work out. It has not been of any value at all, so I called after 3 weeks to cancel. I was told that I could not cancel for 5 more months. I am now having to pay for a valueless system. I caution anyone who thinks about going for this to find some other way of generating leads. This is a waste and a rip off.

Realtor.com got me to sign up for leads also. Their sales rep. called a least ten times to get me to sign and promised the world. I made her send me info for what i was signing up for. She sent the legal doc about basically when you agree you have 3 days to cancel. I again ask her to write what she was saying. She sent an email saying i would get 6 months for price of 6, free banner space... After the first month of 3 leads which lead to laughs and hang ups i was done and too wanted out.
Called realtor.com, lady who signed me disappeared? New rep laughed at me and told me i'm paying for all 6 months. Called CC company realtor.com just sent letter that after 3 days it' can't be terminated. After a few months of fighting i found the email that said i'd be paying for 5 and getting 6 months. Sent to CC company. Poof full refund and of abusive relationship with realtor.com

I wish I had found this site before I signed up with Realtor.com's CoBroke program. It's more like GOBroke, paying for a service you get nothing out of. The salesperson was pushy and promised way more leads than I've gotten. She also told me they'd be serious leads because they don't have a forced sign-up. The FOUR leads I've received in two months since I signed up have all been crap - low end, bad phones or emails, looky-loos. I'm stuck for a year with not much hope of getting out of the agreement, so I supposed I'll have to resign myself to giving a big charitable donation to Realtor.com. Learn from my mistake - save your money. I'd heard terrible things about other sites like Zillow and Trulia, but I thought Realtor.com would be different. It's not. They're all rip-offs.

They are screwing me out of $1000.00 per month. Very few leads (maybe 6 in 4 months), and the leads are poor qualifications. AVOID this company with all regards. Todd Sachs - Realtor, Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Homesale Realty.

I signed up in January 2015 at $360.00 per month, I was not going to give them any credit card information. I received lots of leads but possibly 2 people I actually spoke to on the phone. Never closed a single deal, stopped receiving leads after 3 months since I didn't pay them but they keep sending me invoices every month and no someone from Delaware #[protected] called me today telling me I owe $3200.00, haha, never going to get it buddy, I will gladly pay them for 3 months worth of leads even though nothing panned out. I am tired of these companies promising you the world with there great videos of other agents killing it with the leads they receive. The only problem is they don't work in all markets, Don't sign up is all I can say.

10/4/15

I tried them for one year. In theory, buyers on Realtor.com interested in a particular property ask for more information via email. Realtor.com forwards it to one of the agents in the queue who purchased this zip code who should contact the buyer within minutes. I always contacted the buyer within minutes. Realtor.com sent me about 3 or 4 leads a week.

MY EXPERIENCE:
98% of the time buyers would NOT answer the phone, nor would they would return a phone call or email.

Of the people I spoke to, the vast majority were just 'lookey-loos' attracted by an impossibly low price; my area has many country clubs with required membership equity of anywhere form $40k-$100k (plus annual fees of over $25k) so many beautiful homes are languishing on the market at ridiculously low prices.

In addition, I was receiving leads from other realtors who were also advertising with Realtor.com and, in this way moved themselves forward in the queue for referrals (the minute one gets a referral, they would submit a request for info on a property- often their own listings!)

At the end of the term I advised my customer rep that I was not renewing. From that moment on (even though I had another MONTH left on my subscription) I didn't receive another lead (as bad as they were).

You've been advised.

Like all of the above reviews, it is clearly evident that Realtor.com does a bait and switch. They tell you over the phone that with the two zip codes that you purchased, you will receive 10-12 leads a month. Then when you explain to then that you have only received four leads over a two month period =, one of which was interested in renting a house and not buying that it is not in fact set up on a monthly basis but on a yearly basis. They now have flip-flopped and said, "no you will get between 84 and 96 leads in a year." So for the system to work correctly, you need to wait the full year and then see how the program has performed. But by then they already have your $2, 500 and you are free to not renew. The problem is, as mentioned many times above, the leads never come and when you do in fact get a lead, there is a zero contact ratio after calling and emailing. They never let you cancel and you never get to talk to the person who signed you up, they just all say, "well I can't speak for so and so" but let me give you some free areas to generate more leads. You then give in and take the bait, and low and behold, one more month of no leads. No you call back to cancel and they say, oh, we can't do that, we need to wait and see how this program performs, even though they admit that the program is not performing. It is an awfully run program, with no follow-up or customer service. Where else in business can you not cancel something that is not what you ordered. It is like ordering a steak and getting chicken, then the server says, well just try the chicken, I know you ordered the steak, but see if you like the chicken, because we can't give you any money back. A scam of all scams, and if there are any Tort lawyers out there this could be a great case for them, because it sounds like they give many hard working realtors the same run around.

I signed up with Realtor.com in July and was told I could expect 36-48 leads over the year for each zip code purchased. about 280 a month. Since I signed up, I have received 14 leads in 3 and half months that were not realtors. I spoke with their "customer retention manager" I think his name was Anwar or something like that and told him I want to cancel my account. He became belligerent and told me he would not do anything of the kind. When I asked for his supervisor I was told by him that he was in charge. Evidently the Realor.com customer retention department is designed to intimidate, tell half truths and to keep you money coming in at all costs. IF YOU ARE REALTOR, DON'T SIGN UP WITH THESE GUYS, THEY WILL STEAL YOUR MONEY AND THEN TRY TO JUSTIFY THEIR PERFORMANCE. Can't see how they survive except through gullible people like me.
Bill Arndt
Naples Florida