Empire Today’s earns a 4.4-star rating from 842 reviews, showing that the majority of home and business owners are very satisfied with their flooring and window treatments.
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terrible company overall
Last year (I believe May 2007 to be exact) we decided to purchase new carpet for our entire downstairs area, our stairs leading to the upper level, the living room upstairs, and the upstairs hallway. We decided to give Empire Today a try after seeing all of the commercials. We met with the salesman (who came to our house) one night to discuss the different carpet Empire Today has to offer. We explained our needs as far as foot traffic and desired carpet life. The salesman recommended one of their higher end carpets. It was more than we wanted to spend, but based on the salesman's suggestion, we decided to go with it. We also opted for a higher end pad to help with the carpet life. He assured us that the carpet we were purchasing was a very durable carpet and would continue to look new for quite a few years.
It is now a year later and we have had nothing but issues with the carpet, the installation, the local Empire Today office, and Empire Today customer service. The installers rushed the job and left without making sure everything was correct (they needed to go out and get a beer). There is a seam that goes the length of the upstairs living room and can be seen in any lighting and from any angle. There is a hole in the carpet where it connects to the carpet in my son's room. We can literally pull the carpet up as if it was never tacked down in many places in the house, including the stairs. The carpet is uneven along the walls where they didn't cut it right or didn't tack it down right. They didn't use any border strips when going from one room to another, we actually had to pursuade them to use what few existing strips were already there) The carpet is also discoloring in many places, some places more than others. All this from what was told to us was a higher end carpet that would last and from their "professional" installers. To put the icing on the cake, we have paid in full the price of the carpet. So they have their money and we have a pile of crap.
We called the Empire Today 800 number and they put us in touch with the local office. At the local office we spoke with a Sara. Her contact number is [protected] x4086. They sent out an inspector (paid by them of course) to test our carpet and report back to them the results. During his "testing", he didn't test in the problem areas (and we pointed all of them out), but rather tested in the very few areas where there aren't any issues, mostly where there is no foot traffic or furniture. In addition, he could not perform at least one of his tests due to equipment malfunction. After he performed what tests he could, he left saying that he would send his report to the local office. We don't understand how a report could be filed when he didn't even perform all of the tests! Especially when that report is supposed to detail the findings of the testing which in turn determines what action Empire Today takes. I guess that is what to expect when the company you have an issue with pays for an "inspector" to come out. How in the world can anyone be sure that "inspector" will give a good report? However, he did file the report.
We received a call from the local office saying that they would replace the padding only on the stairs and would perform "power stretching" for the rest of the carpet. According to them, power stretching "should help with the wear and make the carpet stand back up". Also, they claim that it should help with the very visible seam. Of course they are not giving any guarantee that it will stand back up or with the seam, leaving us with the same worn and discolored carpet that we have the issue with. After many calls the local office agreed to replace the carpet on the stairs only, but that the rest of the house would still be power stretched. We continued to ask them why their "higher end" carpet would wear like this. They didn't give us any straight answers.
We decided to contact the 800 number again. I spoke with a customer service manager who then referred me to the "office of the President". I believe she is the President over this market. Who knows, she could be president of sanitation. Her name is Helen Brown and her contact info is [protected] x7782. I explained the situation to her and told her that we were not interested in getting the same carpet from Empire Today since our experience with the carpet was that it didn't last and that it was far from what we would consider "higher end". Plus, it is our understanding that the installers that did such a poor job for us are still employed with the company! So basically we were offered more sub-par carpet to be more than likely installed by the same terrible installers that did such a bad job in the first place. We told her that we wanted nothing less than at least a refund of the installation cost and partial refund of the carpet cost if not a full refund all together considering we purchased carpet based on the salesman's suggestion and we don't feel that the carpet we purchased is as good as the salesman claimed it to be. I mean come on, it's only been a year and the carpet looks this bad, as if it's been here for 5 years! I also told her that I am ready to file a formal complaint with the Better Business Bureau against the local office as well as the Empire Today corporation as a whole. She said she would look into the issue and get back to me the next day. She did contact me the next day, however she only offered the same resolution that the local office did, to replace the carpet and pad on the stairs only and power stretch the rest of the carpet. So that tells me that she didn't listen to a single word I said to her the previous day and just passed on the same pitiful "resolution" that the local office gave to us. She also stated that we needed to have the carpet professionally cleaned at least once a year. So that to me means spending more money to fix their carpet issue. All in all, we feel that Empire Today doesn't care about their customer since they don't want to resolve this to our satisfaction. They want to give us the same poor carpet (on the stairs only) that we are unhappy with and only "try" to "fix" the rest of the carpet.
At this point, we are extremely unhappy and want to warn as many people as possible to NOT do business with Empire Today! I will be filling a compliant with the Better Business Bureau. This isn't the first time we have replaced carpet in our house, but it will be the last time that we do it with carpet and services from Empire Today. With hindsight being 20/20, we should have stuck with the company that we used in the past.
don't pay their employees enough
I currently work for empire and they do not even pay their employees enough money to get by. I've worked for this sorry # company for over four years and started with a base pay of $10 per hour a d now make $11.75 per hour. That's an employee rip-off. That's why I have the department of labor looking into this to see if I can get some type of compansation...
Read full review of Empire Today and 2 commentscomplete rip-off
Completely dissatisfied! Paid too much compared to competitor pricing. The sales rep- guaranteed that this was the best price. What a lie! I over paided by at least $3, 000! Then they won't match OR take care of you in anyway. They wouldn't give me a detailed bill with included the individual breakdown of laminate per square foot, sub-floor, labor, etc... All they could provide was a package price! Corporate office pretty much said that there is nothing they can do! Now I am going through my credit card to get a resolution! Don't use them! Complete rip-off! I would have been happy to meet somewhere in the middle, but that option was never even given.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
You must be a competitor or completely uninformed because the opposite is true about Everything you said. Empire will BEAT ANY price on like product and service. Period!
service & warranty issues
My husband and I were never given the information required to cover our carpet & padding under warranty should the need arise. The salesman told us we would receive it w/in 14 days. We were not diligent and trusted the salesman. We (1) don't have the information to identify which warranties apply to our carpet (or padding) AND we don't have proof of...
Read full review of Empire Today
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services not as promised
Salesman came to our home. Sold the product to us. When they came to install it was not as promised. When we questioned it they said the salesman was an independent contractor and it was not their problem he has misrepresented the carpet. They left with our old carpet torn out and tack strips on the floor. We had to hire another company at a must higher price and wait for carpet to come in. Filed a complaint with the better business bureau but nothing was done. We did discover that they advertise locally but are not even a based in Kansas City.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer's satisfaction.
I have never ever been so disappointed at a company... We purchased hardwood flooring 2 weeks ago, they were supposed install it on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday. On the Thursday the installers arrive at 11am with defective wood. The manager "Rex " was called he was an ###. He tried to tell us that the wood had a rustic texture and that was what we ordered. I told him that I was not stupid and that the wood was defective and would not let it be installed. He did not care what measures we had gone through in the past 2 weeks trying to get ready for this install and lost 2 days off work.
We returned the flooring and ordered a different wood to be delivered on Friday we get a call at Friday that the wood that we ordered the day before -was out of stock . Disappointed is an understatement ! We are sitting here with our house all packed up and ready for the installation and EMPIRE could not produce. Of course, they are trying to sell us a different product that is more expensive, not on their sale ( 50/50/50)... They are a rip off company, they do not care about their customers, and they only try to reel you in give you a price then try to sale you something totally different then what you ordered. NEVER AGAIN!
Oh to make matter worse, the cannot refund my money for 7-10 business days.
The only person that was professional and on time and sold us what he thought the company could produce was Mike.
San Antonio watch out for these scammers especially Rex
This was the worst company I have ever done business with! Did not bring enough material to finish the job rescheduled 3 times still no call and no show! This company should not be in business! Very unprofessional!
do not buy their flooring
Empire Today claims they have low factory prices, they are among the highest prices! Their Cherry laminate flooring looks incredibly cheap. My vacuum's wheels scratch the floor, a cup fell out of the dishwasher and it chipped, and now is has started to warp.
Their customer service clown admitted that their prices are high because they have next day service and move furniture. We had them come a week later and all they had to do was roll the refrigerator out, yet they still charged us for the services.
We were going to have them do our upstairs carpet, for $4, 470, we cancelled after we saw the shoddy floor material and their lame installation, and had Home Depot do it for $1, 800.
I have posted complaints on their EmpireBlog and all that shows up are 'Empire is great' raves, for some reason my blogs don't show up. They don't answer my requests as to why.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
this co. sucks that is bottom line
target elderly
They (Empire) targets the elderly... sent a slick salesman/thug out to see my 85 yr. old mother, started installation the same day, didn't install what she ordered, charged twice as much as verbal estimate, carpeted over heat ducts and around heavy furniture. When busted they adjusted the price by 50% but within a few months began another (futile) collection attempt. They should have their mothers treated the same way, see how THEY like it.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
hahahaha, Empire NEVER install same day, ONLY give WRITTEN quotes, and installers know better than to carpet around furniture, next time you should come up out of the basement when your mother needs help with the house. thug? what a dope!
We are currently reviewing the comments as posted on this website. It is the goal of Empire Today to provide excellent customer service to all customers. Unfortunately, we are unable to find your order with the name provided on this website. Our customer service team may be reached via email at webscustomerservice@empiretoday.com or on our website at http://www.empiretoday.com/Customer-Service. We also welcome you to visit our carpet stories site at http://carpetstories.empiretoday.com/.
rip off
I had Empire Carpet come to my house and the slick salesman told me I needed 200+square yards and he then quoted me a price of 10, 000 dollars.
The same Shaw carpet cost me 3, 800 at Home Depot for 160 square yards. My savings are paying for my daughter's first year of college.
Empire advertised 50% off, the salesman didn't even bring that carpet in the house because of the poor quality. He then told me that another company would charge me 13, 500 for the carpet and proceeded to tell me how he would save me 3, 500 dollars.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer's satisfaction.
So yea we saw the commercial, been wanting new flooring for a while. Finally we decided to go ahead and do it. From the start it was a mes... We made the appointment and the sales man was an hour late. I figured rush hour, busy area, we will live. He got here and was friendly, at first, but pushed to get down to business. This is my first time. So flooring, and pricing, is all new to me. Anyways, he went on about how good the product is, only top of the line stuff. To be honest I can care less that the laminate only has a 6% percent leak through. Not like I am dumping buckets of water on my floor anytime soon.
Finally he measures and comes up with a number. I don't know what he measured but I know for a fact we had less that 500 sq ft we wanted done. Actually when I tried measuring it myself, it's about 400 sq ft, give or take on weird angles and such. So finally he comes up with $8, 700.00! Well I didn't, at first, know that was a lot for such small square feet and laminate, not real wood, floors. 50% off? Well, the product is supposedly 50% off. They don't do 50% off of labor because it's a 4 man job and they are not going to only pay for 2 men. He did explain that all 4 workers would have 10 years of experience.
Still, as expensive as it was, everything seemed to be going ok. Then I asked about 3 steps by my front door. Just 3 steps. Well you can't put laminate on steps, that would have to be hard wood. Okay, I thought, how about it. He told me it would cost an extra $1, 100 to do three damn steps! $1, 100 freakin bucks! All because it has to be hard wood. Well, we were financed out, and didn't have the extra cash. So after paying $8, 700, they couldn't give us 3 damn steps? That started it all...
The next day the workers came. Well the sales man was lying. Wouldn't give 50% off of the work because it's a 4 man job. Well then why were only 3 men working on it? All ten years experience, at least... that was a lie, one of the was 17, and rarely did anything except cary supplies, sweep, and whatever else they asked him to do. So really I paid for a 4 mon installation, and they doubled up on the money. That upset me as well.
SO I start looking around, talking to people, etc. I figured I paid $17.40 a square foot! Installation and everything. That is way too expensive. I even asked the workers and had I bought the flooring myself and contracted them, I could have had it installed for just over $2, 000!. AND the sales guy who explained that half of the price is automatically for the installation... OKAY I understand that. But that means the actual product WHICH I SUPPOSEDLY GOT 50% OFF was $8.70 a square foot! That is still about 4 times the amount for that exact product than I could get at a do it yourself store.
It gets worse. I wrote about it on the website. They said a 'customer service rep' would contact me in 1 to 3 days. Nothing happened. I did it again, nothing happened. I called Empire again, to speak directly myself, they said they had to contact a local office to speak with me so they can fix any problems. FINALLY the local guy called me. BUT he called during the hours I was working, even though I put on the website when is best to call. Then they never called back since. I have tried calling and get the same thing.
So I did more research and found out I could have bought the products myself, hired someone to do it, and pay less than half, or about half, of what I paid for this crappy experience. After researching this more, I realized that as soon as my year of no financing hits, they will rape you. If you made the mistake of going with them, pay it off before the year is up.
DON'T USE EMPIRE TODAY... complete rip off, and no customer service!
Empire Today is very deceiving. I would never use them again or recommend them to anyone. We had laminate hardwood flooring put in last year, the salesman told my husband and I that we had 12 months to pay the entire amount without interest and after the first year we would start getting charged interest monthly. Instead after the first year we were charged interest on the full amount. Our flooring cost us $11, 000.00, for that amount I expect quality flooring and labor. I complained to them because we have some nicks and dull spots, (we do have 4 animals) that the salesman was aware of and said the flooring would stand up to anything. When I did complain they informed me that the salesman we dealt with was no longer there, but they would have a 3rd party come out and see what the problem was. I was astounded when I got the report saying it was my fault for the way I took care of the floor, We also have creeking on the floor in our bedroom (I wonder who's fault that is) This company is misleading and they do very shoddy work
Well a friend of mine had used Empire Today and he recommended them to me. I called and scheduled and appointment for 3-5 pm. Well on that day I didn't get a call until 6:30 pm from the guy that was supposed to come that day. He told me he was sick and couldn't make it and I needed to reschedule. This should have turned me off and I wish I never had them come here but I did anyway. So I made an appointment for 2 days later. The woman shows up and measures the room and is very shady about the whole process. She didn't tell me how much the carpet we picked out cost per square foot and just told me it's going to cost $1275 for a bedroom! I was shocked but figured that I was getting carpet from a trustworthy company and it would be good quality. She took a deposit of $250 and quickly left. After looking over the paper work and realizing that it was a rip off I knew that I should have paid more attention and asked more questions. When I did the math I was paying $50 per square foot! This was my first time buying carpet and owning a home so I was not educated on this subject. I quickly called her and she was shocked that I called back so fast and started saying how she could check the local warehouses and see if she could get me a lower price. Well a thought that she would do this from the start and that they should be giving me the best price. She got mad that I kept telling her to cancel everything so she hung up the phone. I went online and stopped payment on the check which cost me$30 but it's better than losing $250. I received a phone call from her several hours later and told me I could have the carpet done of $500. That is less than half the price I was originally quoted so why could she go so low now? I didn't really care how low she could go at this point because I didn't trust her anymore. Once again I said no and she hung up the phone. I would never recommend anyone to use Empire Today. I went to Lowes the same day and got Stainmaster carpet with good padding for about $37 a square foot. And at least I knew what I was getting there and everything was explained to me in a professional manner.
In January we had carpet put in our home, it looked ok when they were done, but the first time I vacuumed it, it almost broke my sweeper as so much fuzz came up. I called Empire Today that day and filed a complaint, they told me it was carpet blooming and that each time I vacuumed it would get less, well it is almost a year and I have talked to the customer rep and I still have just as much fuzz, and no answer from Empire Today except that they can replace it for $900.00 ? We have never enjoyed our carpet since we had it put in so what so we do?Please let me know what I should do?
Thank you for bringing your sales experience to our attention. We apologize for any inconvenience. Please contact us at [protected] should you have any questions.
Needed carpet. Empire sales rep was very nice and attentive. Things that I kept thinking about in the hours AFTER we bought:
1. why wasn't there a price on the sample? He only gave us the price per sq. ft. after we picked it. That's strange.
2. no name brand or manufacturer on the sample. They advertise "top name brand" carpet but there is nothing stating what brand it is.
3. pay the sales rep a deposit and pay the balance to the installers? The installers? huh?
4. AND $3.67 per sq. ft for 60% off? Hmm.. that seems 'off'. Yes, I should've calculated that when he was here but I was dealing with a 5 yr. old and just wanted it to be over (3 hours by this time)
So by the time I can think clearly about the above concerns it's midnight. So the next morning I look these guys up on complaints board and BBB... Holy Cow, more postings than I've ever seen on a company. Decide to cancel order, easy right?
Ok so to cancel Empire gives you 3 options... notification by mail (no time since we have 3 days and it's now day 2) mail from Dallas to Illinois will take at least 3 days and has anyone relied on USPS lately? second option is to deliver in person to the home office (hello? I'm in Texas, you're in Illinois) OR via telegram. Telegram? Who in the hell does telegrams today? NOBODY that's who! So I overnight the cancellation notification via Fed Ex and pay $56.
Today I go price shopping for carpet. Home Depot, Lowes and a local carpet store. Everything I liked that was BETTER quality based on the warranty, the density and the twists and was about the same price that Empire gave us on sale. That's when I realized that if $3.67 was the sale price then the original price was $9.25 sq. ft. ! Say what?
Lesson learned but the funny thing is I own a retail store and my prices are the same for anyone who wants to purchase. No hidden price tag and if it's on sale, it's on SALE. So I should have known better!
Oh, one other thing. I was at my store working when the sales rep came to our house. My husband calls me to say I need to come home because both of us are supposed to be there. Empire requires both "decision makers" to be home during the presentation. Um, did he bring us a time share condo or a Kirby vacuum?
Back to shopping for carpet. Thanks everyone.
Thank you for bringing your experience to our attention. We apologize for any inconvenience, and our team would like to work with you to explore a resolution. Please contact us at webcustomerservice@empiretoday.com so that we may be able to assist. You can also visit our online customer center at http://www.empiretoday.com/Customer-Service.
Actually, I found a place for laminate floor for 99 CENT SQ F! The warranty is for 50 years!
That is amazing, imagine all I can save. They installed it, they saud the installation is going to be around 500 bucks for 300 sg of my kitchen. Well, the store installed it in 10 days, it cost me 99 cents plus tax, but the installers charged me around 900 buck, the store said they dont have nothing to do whith installations prices, so I just paid it. The installation was fine, but, this store made me signed the 50 years warranty, and for my surprise, they said that once the floor is installed, the warranty is VOID! what in earht is that! A few months later, the laminate started to bend upwards, I called the store and I was told someone will be going to my hose in the next week. They indeed came the next, next, next week (three weeks later) and said that the laminate I purchased is very low quality and if I want it to last longer I should purchase new flooring! That is outrageous! Next thing is that they will charge me 500 bucks to fix just a few laminates that are bending!
I had an estimate for empire today, but i learned from this blog that empire is a ripoff and that is not woth it, so I went to another store suggested in this blog, then all started to go wrong...
I learned my lesson, I should bought it from empire today in the first place, since they offered me an extraordinary flooring with written warranty and one year installation warranty. That is peace of mind. Next time, I will not be cheap as some people in this blog, shame for me, shame for you...
I happen to work at a flooring retailer.
Can i please shed some light on flooring for yah?
Flooring is simple although you need to be handy to accomplish some DIY tasks, flooring is not in any means confusing to buy.
I can break down the costs to witch it should have costed you.
You said you have 400SF to do, You need 10% extra for Cutting + Waste.
You need 440SF of "product"
Cheap laminate is 20bucks a case and decent stuff is 50bucks a case.
So lets say you went with the decent stuff @ 50bucks a case and in an average case your looking at 20SF.
-440SF divided by 20SF/case = 22Cases x 50bucks a case = $1, 100 bucks for "Product"
-Under lay for upstairs is 0.20Cents/SF and sold in 100SF rolls at $19.99 you would need at least 4 but lets go with 5
-$100 bucks for Underlay
-We install laminate for $3.25SF
-440 x 3.25 = $1430 modest eh?
You will need baseboards and some transitions so tack on another $200bucks just to be safe.
$1100 + $100 + $1430 + $200 = $2830 ($3113 with tax)
Thanks for your commentary. It was very helpful.
poor quality carpet
Empire installed new carpet in our house on 04/02/2008. Our sales rep led us to believe that we were getting a high quality carpet, but once it was installed it looked like used carpet. The seams were very visible -- not because of an installation issue, but because of color differences in the carpet. There were also several areas where the carpet wa...
Read full review of Empire Today and 2 commentswrong carpet
Approx 1 yr ago, I bought carpet for my living room, dining room, and hallway from Empire. The salesman was ok, but not very experienced. What they advertised as 50% off was terrible. I opted for a much higher grade carpet, and a color that would not show wear and tear. When the carpeting arrived it was not the color I had chosen, however the name of the carpet I had chosen was attached to the roll of carpet. I thought that perhaps when it was completely installed it would resemble my original choice. It was certainly not even close to what I had chosen. I called the company numerous times, they stalled and stalled. I finally just learned to live with the carpet that I did not order. I was surprised when I read all of the complaints about Empire. I thought I was alone in this ordeal.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire Today. Empire Today is dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. Please visit our Carpet Stories website at http://carpetstoreis.empiretoday.com/ to read the experiences of other Empire Today customers. Unfortunately, we are unable to find your order with the name provided in this post. Please feel free to contact us at for further assistance at http://www.empiretoday.com/Customer-Service or via email at webcustomerservice@empiretoday.com
blind installation - substandard
5 blinds were installed in kitchen for $1000+. We expected competent installation, but it was even close.Valances were installed w/ a haphazard combination of screws & Velcro squares.Screws are not strong enough to hold blinds. Squares of Velcro to hold up heavy pieces of wood?Carpentry work on installations are substandard.Days after the install, a valance crashed down.Shoddy installation resulted in a dangerous situation, we have a small child.The 2nd time installer came to fix a missing valance, it got worse.The 1st time I pulled the string the blind crashed down and cut and injured my right arm.I'm 5 mos.pregnant & this injury is dangerous to my health.I'm still in pain.I called you immediately to report situation.Operator said a special dept would call.I didn't get phone call from a "specialist, " instead I got call from the SAME installer.I never want him back in my home!
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire Today. Empire Today is dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. Please visit our Carpet Stories website at http://carpetstoreis.empiretoday.com/ to read the experiences of other Empire Today customers. Unfortunately, we are unable to locate your order with the information provided on this site. Please feel free to contact us at for further assistance at http://www.empiretoday.com/Customer-Service or via email at webcustomerservice@empiretoday.com
misrepresentation, manipulation and deceitful practice
This gloried middle man company just inflates the price to create it's own profit under the guise of quality, convenience and speed. Buyer beware! This is the most expensive services you can get. I fell for the advertising and had them come out to a house I was remodeling. I should have known right away that someone is paying for all that advertising. I got a bid to install laminate flooring for a 500 sq. ft area. The bid was $18, 000. That's right $$$18, 000 but with the 50% off it was the bargain price of $$$$9, 000. Now you have understand that I had already done all the prep work and the house was empty.
I was baffled at the price being quoted and of course asked for a breakdown but as others have found out they don't do that. If they did it would become apparently clear that they are making exorbitant profits. There is no transparency here they have to hide their costs otherwise none would buy from them unless they have money to burn. I laughed at the sales person and sent her packing. I decided to do the floor myself and bought a laminate on sale at the box store for 500.00 bucks. I installed it slowly and carefully over the next 5 days; not a difficult job. So 9, 000.00 minus 500.00 equals 8, 500.00. I figure that I paid myself $1, 700.00 for 8 hours work each day. The most I have ever made in a day. Now I realize that there flooring is probably more expensive then the flooring I got but I figure I could have but the most expensive floor out there and still come out way ahead. That was 4 years ago and the floor still looks great.
My concern is for the little old lady or those not savvy or cautious who fall for a firm handshake and all the hype; 50% off, next day installation, and no payments for a year. Please get 3 bids at least, deal with local hometown businesses or make it an adventure and do it yourself and keep your hard earned money.
This business is an unequivocal rip-off and they prey on your trust and your ignorance. It's no deal. Good luck to all of you out there.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Empire Today is in receipt of your concerns and will be in contact with you to work towards a resolution. A member of the Office of the President will contact you and personally discuss your concerns. Additionally, we suggest that you visit our Flooring Stories website at http://flooringstories.empiretoday.com/ to review the experiences of other Empire Today customers. You may also contact our customer service department directly at webcustomerservice@empiretoday.com.
they do not pay their sales people
I worked for Empire Today for several years. In the last couple years it has been hard to get paid for the jobs you sell.
When a sales person comes out to your home, they are given a price range that they are allowed to charge. The sales person may be able to charge $24-$50 a yard. If you get a salesperson that can really sell you may pay more than 2x more then the people next door. Now the salespeople have to sell area rugs. It they don't sell a certain amount a week they are not given work the following week. The salesperson is taught how to charge for the area rug and make the customer think they are getting it for free. You can get the same area rug at Lams plus for a lot less.
When they do their 50% sale it is only on 2 carpets; the cheapest carpet. They pay only about $4 a yard so when they have the sale you are only saving $2 a yard. For example you might pay $26 a yard vs. $24 a yard. The sales person is only allow charging you $24-$50 a yard. There is really no sale.
The reason why Empire always miss their appointments is that they only give appointments to the salespeople that are selling over 50%. So a salesperson may have my 6-8 appointments a day where they can not get to everyone and another salesperson is sitting at home with nothing to do. One of the general managers said at a sales meeting he would rather us miss the appointment (he used the word "burn) then give it to someone who is not selling at 50%. That is why they miss several appointments.
When a salesperson finally leave Empire makes up every excuse not to pay them. I had some sales that they gave to someone else. Salespeople have left the company being owe $1000-$5000 and they never pay them. They can't file a small claims because they don't register in the state and small claims will not let you file a case that is out of state unless it is an auto accident or tenant/landlord problem. You can't go to the labour board because you are an independent contractor. Since the sales people are i.c. Empire does not have to pay unemployment taxes or benefits. If salespeople are fired they can to collect unemployment. If Empire goes through 1000 sales people a year (which is a very low count) and don't pay $2000 to each of them they are saving $2, 000, 000 a year.
Please don't do business with them.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
They Blow Beets and then spread them on carpet to dry. Really Bad ting...Remind me of Phuket wine rub.
They will tell you anything to get you in the door to train you. They will also cancel jobs but then install them and tell you no commission was made. The top dogs will get 85% of all leads and the rest goes to the new sales people and most are weekends and 5-7 pm and 7-9 pm leads that the top dogs don't want. They will tell you those are the times people buy and bs like that. They over charge for flooring so they only have to pay you 4 % on all sales. They have a pay system which works like this. You have to show a target price which nobody will buy at which you would make 10% on that sell . Then they have 8%.6% target which again 99% will not buy at that price. You give the home owner 1, 2, 3, prices and then make a call to the sales manager and they give some bs lines about can we put a sign up can we do mid week or it is 2 products and it the end of the month and i would like to close out the month on a good note and give them 25, 35, 40, even 50% the low 6% pricing. At the 50% off the low 6% commission price you get 4%. So when you sell a jobs that you have spent 2 or 4 hours on and make 4% and had to drive 100 miles you made 80.00 on a sale 2000.00 if that. You will spend a lot of money just to sell for this company. I was a A-B rep so i know what they do. Also note that all new sales people will get 1 maybe 3 leads per week max for a long time . So if you spend all this start up money and only make 160.00 per week make sure you save up all the money you can because you will not eat. Do yourself a big favor and stay the heck away from these guys. You should be making 8 % or more on any job you sale at 40% margins in a normal setting. when you get your commission report look at the total sales margin or profit. At there low price they are still at over 40% margin but only pay you 4% so you can see they are getting by with paying sales people half of what a normal hardworking sales person should get. They pay you 300.00 per week while training and i will bet that's about as high of pay on average you will see for the the first 6 months. They will also call a customer you could not sell even with there help and drop the price even lower and not pay you anything. They will tell you that you could not close the "DEAL" so they will and again not pay you a dime. They also tell you if you sell more then one product you will be paid extra money . Good luck getting paid in a normal time for that and make sure you make copies of all your paper work. They don't give you cards they don't give you leads that you want or can handle because they make sure there top dogs get what leads they want then you get what ever is left which is in bad no selling way the hell out areas. They do training classes every week for new sales people ask them why. They trainers are past sales people ask them why they changed what they were doing to work for the company at a salary pay. I know why because they don't have to wonder where there next meal will coming from. They will make more money working in the office then out selling that's why. They take 5.00 per paycheck for your samples also so when they say they supply all the marketing materials that's a lie to. They do commercials and that's it. Also they don't do the installs correct and there installers are not certified. If you are in the flooring market as a sales person do your self a favor and stay away.
My husband has been working for them for 3 years now, and he has more debt than ever. These ppl are the worst crooks ever, they take abvantage of their employees. The send my husband all these stupid leads. Most of the leads are fake, with wrong names, wrong addresses, cancellations, etc. the company counts that against the salesmen, and that hurts their commision. How can they pay a person $10.42 in a $5200.00 sale?. It is disgusting! is a joke. They find the all possible ways to keep every penny from their employees. Not to mention, that the salesmen are putting their lives at risk, going to unknown places (speacially the areas they send my husband), They don't know what kind of ppl are calling for quotes. My husband has to pay tolls, parking, gas and due to the places they send him his car is falling apart, so car repairs every week, I am sick of it, and my husband doesnt want to quit cause he is 65 years old and he is afraid not to find anything, but at this point it doesnt even make any sense to keep a job that is making you lose money. Over all the company sucks! they do actually get the big money while just seating in their offices sending stupid emails and encouraging to sell, sell, sell while the other ppl do the real hard work and get paid nothing. There is no benefits, at least the salesmen dont have any benefits at all. they are forced to create a sub-company so, when they paid, the check is payable to a company, not an individual so no benefits or whatsover. Better apply for welfare than for empite. Trust me on that!.
I worked for Empire for the last 9 months and it has been a very difficult 9 months. My training class had 9 people in it they lost 6 the first month. Really you don't make enough to be driving all over the place with gas prices the way they are. I was told when I was hired that the leads would be close to where I live, in 9 months only maybe 2 leads where in my area, for the most part I drove about 120 miles a day. Then on top of that you have to put out for a LLC which can run 6 or 7 hundred dollars and then 70 dollars to get finger printed and another 50 for a in home license, and a 50 dollar deposit for your samples As for management, Get ready to get be little they do not take the time with new employees to help them to grow into knowledgeable well trained happy employees, Hench the very large turnover. They are very hard on there employees maybe if they put a little more caring into there employees they wouldn't have so many unhappy employees and customer. ( It starts from the top )
empire was great to me they paid me short term disability when i went out and they paid me a severence pay when they closed down in ks AND now im on unemployment ...getting paid every week..its great .. theyre great and of course sales reps will try and overcharge thats how they get paid!
my name is tony and i had an ### from empire come out and measure
i asked how many square yards he said we charge by job .
he charged me 8900 i said no way he said let me call my manager
then he said 7500 i said get out i called another company and they charged 1400 with carpet labor and tax
I currently work for Empire and they DO NOT even pay their employees enough money to get by. I've worked for this sorry ### company for over four years and started with a base pay of $10 per hour a d now make $11.75 per hour. That's an employee rip-off. That's why I have the Department of Labor looking into this to see if I can get some type of compansation. We can't even do overtime anymore because it takes away from the managers pay. Empire is too busy making customers happy needless to say instead of making their employees happy.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire. We ask that you bring your concerns to the attention of our Human Resources department.
no-show twice
Hire anybody else but Empire Carpet! The Empire Carpet rep pulled a no-show one Saturday. I'd blocked out the three-hour window, and called 20 minutes after the window closed. The customer service person placed me on hold for five minutes, then I was disconnected. I called back. This time the customer service person placed a call to both the sales rep and his manager. Neither picked up. After making an appointment with a competitor, I called back Empire to officially complain about that sales rep, and asked to speak to the manager. The manager would not get on the phone. Luckily the customer service operator was able to take the complaint and also told me that I'd get a $50 credit towards purchase. We rescheduled an appointment for the estimate. Guess what? Another no-show.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
I am usually one to search the internet for complaints b/f dealing w/a company, but for some reason w/Empire I did not. I live in Brooklyn, NY. I made an appmt. w/Empire via telephone back in July for an estimate. I waited around that day for the rep who ended up calling me way after the window he was scheduled to arrive to tell me that he had been in a car accident. Okay; no problem. I decided to reschedule. This time I went to their website and set up the appointments. One was for a shower stall covering and the other was for carpeting. The carpet person was supposed to arrive between 9 and 11am, and the shower person was to arrive between 1 and 3pm. By 12:pm, no one had called or shown up, so I called the company. The rep stated that they were sorry, they should have let me know, but that they were sending one person who would do both the carpet and shower estimate. He then put me on hold and contacted the rep. He got back to me and said that the rep stated that he knew about me and that he would be at my home by 3pm. Well 3 o'clock came and went, and of course there was no courtesy call made to me. By 3:45, I just called Empire and told them to forget about the whole thing. So both myself, and my tenant wasted an entire day sitting around waiting for these jerks. But after reading some of the other horror stories on here, I guess I should count myself lucky they never showed up. I could have ended up w/overpriced cheap quality carpet.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire Today. Empire Today is dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. Unfortunately, we are unable to reference your account with only your first name as provided on this website. We would like to work with you to resolve your concerns. Please contact us at CustomerSupport@empiretoday.com for further assistance.
terrible service!
I bought a house and wanted to do a lot of fixing up before I moved in. I only had one month to fix my house up before I had to be out of my apartment. Carpet was going to be the last stage of the process of fixing up my house. I waited until a week before I needed the carpet installed to go shopping for it. After visiting the big home improvement stores and a few local flooring businesses I realized I waited too late to shop for carpet. No one could install the carpet by the time I needed it. With this problem at hand I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to move all of my stuff in with this nasty carpet in my house. Then, I remembered the famous jingle '[protected], empireeee... TODAY!'
I gave Empire a call and they sent a sales representative out to my house the next day. She came with lots of samples and was also packing a serious attitude until she realized me and my husband were serious about purchasing carpet.
She first measured how many square feet we were going to have carpeted. She wouldn't tell us how many SF it was because she wasn't 'in liberty to do so.' After we picked out the carpet we wanted, she gave us a price of $6800.00 when we could've gotten the same quality carpet at a local home improvement store for $2500.00. We opted for a lower quality at $3800.00, and since our house was empty at the time we got $200.00 off since they wouldn't have to move furniture. She also gave us a 'special discount' which brought our total to $3200.00.
The installers came the next day. On Empire's TV commercial you see happy smiling Americans installing the carpet and they show up in a nice clean Empire Today van. Well, when the installers showed up, it was nothing like I expected. There were a van full of immigrants that looked like they had just sneaked in over the border. Only one of them spoke English.
They were in the driveway walking around smoking cigarettes and on their nextel's. The only guy that spoke English asked if the carpet was the right color, and then he got in the van and left. All that was there now were the ones whom didn't speak any English. Since our house was empty we left them there to install the carpet and returned a few hours later to a party at our house. They had brought in their own stereo blasting Mexican music and dancing to it.
When they left at first glance we were happy with our carpet. At a closer glance over time we noticed many many flaws in the installation. The carpet shed so bad it clogged up and broke my vacuum. I had to buy another one, expensive one that could handle all of the shedding. They came out to fix the flaws in the installation with no problem. However, by this time we were so unhappy with the quality of the carpet and the price we paid. It had only been a couple of months and the carpet was matted down in high traffic areas.
After several complaints to the 800 number they said they were going to send a manager to our house to look at our problem. I took off of work that day to meet up with this person. When they finally got there 1 hour after their 4 hour window period I found out he was just another sales rep. that couldn't help me.
Again, another complaint later they sent an installation manager to my house. He told me the carpet was in good condition and that I need to vacuum in the opposite direction and the carpet will look the way I want it to. (hmmm... never thought of that!)
After a years worth of complaints I finally got in touch with someone that could help me. He told me he would give me $1000.00 off of the price of my carpet, which would bring the total to $2200.00. I said 'No, that's ridiculous, I could've had this same quality carpet installed from a local home improvement store for about $1500.00 or less.' Then he said 'Fine $1500.00, but we won't take off anymore.' I was happy, I guess. Although I paid 1500.00 for a carpet I really don't want in my house.
So my $3800.00 carpet wound up costing me $1500.00 after a years worth of stress. Empire knows they're a rip-off or they wouldn't have given me that much off of my balance. DO NOT SHOP EMPIRE TODAY, I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH OF A HURRY YOU'RE IN TO HAVE IT INSTALLED, YOU'LL BE HAPPIER WAITING ANOTHER WEEK OR TWO TO HAVE IT INSTALLED BY SOMEONE ELSE.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire Today. Empire Today is dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. The customer’s refund was processed. Please feel free to contact us at CustomerSupport@empiretoday.com for further assistance.
do not purchase from empire today-lies, rude staff, poor customer service
MY wife and I recently decided to purchase flooring. The salesman David Miller arrived at our house and was friendly and spent two hours providing us with information about the company and how the product was scratch proof and the best on the market. The saleman also guaranteed that the installation would take one day 6 hours to complete starting at 8am on Tuesday. On Tuesday around 1230 the installer finally arrive and tell me the job will take 2 day to install. After a brief call to the local office the manager Araceli Martinez reduced my price by 750 dollars. I also called David and told him he lied and he sad well if that what theysaid then I guess it is goint o take two days, but I did not lie! After day two I was told that It will take three days to complete becuase there was only two men and the local office kept on sending them to do repairs prior to arriving at our house each day. Once again I called Araceli the manager and she started to get upset becuase I was questioning why they installers were tasked to complete another repair. Finally when I arrived home on day three the installer told me that they were going to need a fourth day and did not have all the supplies. Once again I called to complain and was given the general manager Rick Boysen who was not willing to listen to my complaint about the lies on the time to complete the installation and the product. Rick was very rude and told me that the prroduct does scratch and that I would have to put up with the number of days becuase that I what the contract states. On the contract the start date and end date are written by the salesman David. Becuase of all the chaos I had to change my plans and put my family up in a hotel becuase the floor was torn up and was a risk for the kids. Overall I have not heard from anyone at the local or coporate office. Please take my advice to not conduct buiness with Empire Today.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire. We are dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. We are currently looking into the concerns mentioned in your post. We will contact you within the next three business days. Please feel free to contact us at CustomerSupport@empiretoday.com for further assistance.
sub standard flooring!
To have Empire return the full amount of money paid for flooring. Remove cherry flooring and replace with carpeting of same quality they removed prior to installing floors. Feb 2007 had Empire install cherry floors in my townhouse. In all rooms plus stairs at a cost of $14, 000. This was done to improve my home and make it sale ready. In early November I...
Read full review of Empire Today and 2 commentsoffensive and unprofessional salespeople!
We need new flooring, so my wife got me to contact Empire Today after seeing one of their advertisements on TV. We set up the appointment online and the sales rep came by in a very timely fashion. Pretty cool, I thought... set up an appointment on the web and presto, the sales rep is there on time the next day. I figured we were going to be in for a hard sell since the web site wanted us to ensure that all decision makers would be present, but figured I could handle it since I am a professional salesperson myself. Ted, the sales guy, shows up and agrees to take his shoes off (my wife is from an Asian where culturally it is taboo to keep your shoes on in the house). Very nice, I thought. Some people don’t like to take their shoes off.
Upon entering, Ted immediately says he can have the flooring installed on Monday despite not even having shown us a sample yet. He then starts speaking pidgin English to my wife (who has a Masters degree and, although accented, speaks English very well). Ted proceeds to lay down a sample board (not bothering to explain anything about the quality or style... simply, here are three colors – choose one) and starts writing up a quote. I ask him about other styles and he stops, looks at me, and asks “look, am I making a sale here today or not?” I responded that we are in the process of looking and getting quotes (he wanted to charge us $9, 000), so probably not, but given the state of our floor we will likely be buying in the near future. He proceeds to stand up and tell me that he’s got to go to the car to get other samples, but he’s not coming back in and certainly won’t take his shoes off again if we’re not buying today. He then puts his shoes on, walks all over the living room floor to get something he forgot, and leaves.
Are you kidding me? The guy wants to make an $9, 000 sale just by showing up? The sad thing is, if he had simply gone through a professional sales process there is a high likelihood we would have bought something. As I said, we are buying (all you need to do is look at our floor and you’ll know what I mean). I sell for a living and while what I sell typically requires us to be more strategic with clients, we still do need to roll up our sleeves and get transactional at times. That said, I was stunned, truly stunned, when he refused to provide basic sales services when he learned he wasn’t making the sale today.
Beware when engaging this company... your experience may differ, but this is not a quality company and you would be better served buying from a local dealer or one of the big chains.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Rude and pushy is an understatement for Sales Reps at Empire Today. This group takes the cake for the misleading commercials. Buy this much carpet and get the rest free is a crock of bull. First of all lets start off with the salesmen . I called for a price on laminate wood flooring throughout my house fam room, living room entry way, hallway, laundry room and kitchen., by the end of our conversation he had me talked into carpet for my 4 bedrooms that i did not even plan on remodeling yet. This man would not leave my house and firmly suggested i put it on order now. I told him i wouldn't be doing the bedrooms til i completed the rest of the house but he insisted to put the carpet on hold until i need it. He said lets just hold it and i need 10% down, if you change your mind i will send you your down payment back. My mistake, i felt pressured and signed his 10 page contract that he presented as "sign here sign there" and i asked him what im signing he stated just asking us to have the carpet when you need it. So after he left i thought what did you just do, did this man just make me feel obligated and intimidated, i had just pulled up carpet and had it removed i didn't want carpet . When he priced me for the laminate floor i about fell over with unbelief, 10, 000 he priced me so wow the installers must make bank. I said no that's too much then things got nasty and he said he didn't come to my house for nothing he came for a sale. So i hand the man 50 dollars for 5000 dollars of carpet for my bedrooms that weren't even in my project at the time. anyways im looking over the contract that binds me to put a lien on my house if i fail to buy this carpet "pay in full and have it installed" within 3 weeks. Fortunately, California has a 3 day cool off period...yes i cancelled, the very next day. So its 2 weeks later he calls me and says hi did you cancel your order, i said yes, i wont have the rest of the 5000 in 3 weeks, due to remodeling my original project and he tried lowering the price to 4000 i said no its just not going to happen next week, and lo and behold he said to hell with you and hung up! while i was in the middle of a sentence asking about my 50 dollar refund. I am appalled and at the loss of words for this man. well all that's over, if i get my refund i do if not a lesson is learned, NEVER EVER CALL EMPIRE TODAY AGAIN EVER! I ended up with lam flooring new bathroom vanities, upgraded kitchen cabinets, tile for 3 bathrooms and 4 bedrooms carpeted for 12, 300.
unbelievable my entire house has been remodeled and with empire i would have only got the bedrooms and wood flooring and it still would have cost 3000 more than what i paid with all the upgrades and remodels for each room. They are False advertisement and misleading. unprofessional, selfish, inconsiderate, lousy, rude, expensive but cheap company.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire. We are dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. Unfortunately, we are unable to reference your account with the name provided on this website. We would like to work with you to resolve your concerns. Please contact us at CustomerSupport@empiretoday.com for further assistance.
late for estimate appointment
We had Empire Today install carpeting and tile in our living room and dining room in January 2008. The estimating and installation processes went well, so we decided to have them come back to do our three bedrooms. We called and were given an appointment for between 5 and 7 PM that same evening. At about 6:30 PM we received a call saying our saleman was running late and would be there in 15 to 20 minutes. By 7:30 he had still not arrived, and we had not received any further calls. We called to cancel the estimate and were put through to the salesman who said he was just fininshing with his last appointment. Based on where he said he was and knowing what traffic is like in our area we knew it would have probably taken him another hour to get to our house. We told him we would reschedule, but we will now have someone else do the job. Between getting the house ready and waiting for the saleman to show up we wasted an entire afternoon and evening. As potential repeat customers we had expected better service. Empire Today needs to be more realistic in scheduling its sales appointments.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
David, c'mon, get real, pal. You know how crappy traffic can be as well as what a pain in the ### some customers can be which is probably why your salesman was running late. I'll talk to him and see if we can give you and your wife (I'll take care of you wife) a little bonus.
Sincerely,
Mr. Empire
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire. We are dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. We are currently looking into the concerns mentioned in your post. We will contact you within the next three business days. Please feel free to contact us at CustomerSupport@empiretoday.com for further assistance.
no show for estimate appointment
I scheduled an in home estimate with Empire Carpets. They were supposed to arrive between 7-9pm. At about 8:15pm I decided to call them to see if they knew when they would arrive. They told me that my ticket was never picked up and no one was coming. I asked how this could happen and she said it happens and asked if I would like to reschedule. I said NO! These are not the kind of professionals I want installing my flooring.
The complaint has been investigated and resolved to the customer’s satisfaction.
Thank you for brining your concerns to the attention of Empire. We are dedicated to providing world-class customer service to every customer. We are currently looking into the concerns mentioned in your post. We will contact you within the next three business days. Please feel free to contact us at CustomerSupport@empiretoday.com for further assistance.
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Empire Today Contacts
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Empire Today phone numbers+1 (800) 588-2300+1 (800) 588-2300Click up if you have successfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (800) 588-2300 phone number 0 0 users reported that they have successfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (800) 588-2300 phone number Click down if you have unsuccessfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (800) 588-2300 phone number 0 0 users reported that they have UNsuccessfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (800) 588-2300 phone numberCustomer Service+1 (855) 972-3100+1 (855) 972-3100Click up if you have successfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (855) 972-3100 phone number 0 0 users reported that they have successfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (855) 972-3100 phone number Click down if you have unsuccessfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (855) 972-3100 phone number 0 0 users reported that they have UNsuccessfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (855) 972-3100 phone number+1 (866) 379-0755+1 (866) 379-0755Click up if you have successfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (866) 379-0755 phone number 0 0 users reported that they have successfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (866) 379-0755 phone number Click down if you have unsuccessfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (866) 379-0755 phone number 0 0 users reported that they have UNsuccessfully reached Empire Today by calling +1 (866) 379-0755 phone number
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Empire Today emailscustomersupport@empiretoday.com100%Confidence score: 100%Supportcustomersupport@empire-today.com100%Confidence score: 100%Supportpressrelations@empiretoday.com97%Confidence score: 97%communicationhr@empiretoday.com95%Confidence score: 95%hr
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Empire Today address333 Northwest Avenue, Melrose Park, Illinois, 60164, United States
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Checked and verified by Laura This contact information is personally checked and verified by the ComplaintsBoard representative. Learn moreDec 18, 2024 - View all Empire Today contacts
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Actually, I found a place for laminate floor for 99 CENT SQ F! The warranty is for 50 years!
That is amazing, imagine all I can save. They installed it, they saud the installation is going to be around 500 bucks for 300 sg of my kitchen. Well, the store installed it in 10 days, it cost me 99 cents plus tax, but the installers charged me around 900 buck, the store said they dont have nothing to do whith installations prices, so I just paid it. The installation was fine, but, this store made me signed the 50 years warranty, and for my surprise, they said that once the floor is installed, the warranty is VOID! what in earht is that! A few months later, the laminate started to bend upwards, I called the store and I was told someone will be going to my hose in the next week. They indeed came the next, next, next week (three weeks later) and said that the laminate I purchased is very low quality and if I want it to last longer I should purchase new flooring! That is outrageous! Next thing is that they will charge me 500 bucks to fix just a few laminates that are bending!
I had an estimate for empire today, but i learned from this blog that empire is a ripoff and that is not woth it, so I went to another store suggested in this blog, then all started to go wrong...
I learned my lesson, I should bought it from empire today in the first place, since they offered me an extraordinary flooring with written warranty and one year installation warranty. That is peace of mind. Next time, I will not be cheap as some people in this blog, shame for me, shame for you...